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Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

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Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#481

Post by cookie_monsta »

greentxt wrote: post #345
brabel wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only do I avoid using LSP features, but I’m also opposed to their use. While they can help with navigation, they may prevent developers from experiencing and addressing the underlying structural issues in their code. LSP by itself will not prevent anything. LSP (using the terminology from OP, but any IDE really) is just a tool like any other which allows you to do things faster. It doesn't matter how organized…

"the whole point of your job is automation?" Automation is not the point of programming. Think hard about this. It's the most important point. Code/build/hack to create more work for people to do, not less. It's thanatos. People need to unlearn "programming==automation" before it's too late. Everything we do as programmers should be done with "create more work" as a mantra.

I see where you're going but for me "create more work" doesn't quite capture it. In my mind there's a pretty clear distinction between computer work and human work. Computers are good at fast, precise calculations and following complex procedures repetitively without variation. Humans are good at lateral thinking, constructing narrative and drawing non-obvious connections.

Coincidentally, humans are generally really bad at the things that computers are good at and vice versa.

I think our job is to build systems where the computers are doing the computer work, which frees up the humans' brains and time to do the human work.

So not creating more work per se, maybe creating the opportunity to do better work?

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#482

Post by fpoling »

brabel wrote: post #184
daltonpinto wrote: post #99

This question reminds me of the first time I met a blind programmer. I asked him how he managed to code, and he replied with something that stayed with me: a good programmer should organize software in such a way that every piece of code has a clear and logical place. The organization should be so intuitive that anyone could build a mental model of the structure and navigate it easily, even without seeing it. It felt…

> Not only do I avoid using LSP features, but I’m also opposed to their use. While they can help with navigation, they may prevent developers from experiencing and addressing the underlying structural issues in their code. LSP by itself will not prevent anything. LSP (using the terminology from OP, but any IDE really) is just a tool like any other which allows you to do things faster. It doesn't matter how organized…

LSP optimizes writing the code. Yet debugging, reviewing and reading other people code take significantly more time than writing. If code is organized badly and go-to-definition or even moving the mouse to trigger the tooltip is required when doing those tasks, it makes the whole experiences worse.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#483

Post by beej71 »

I admit this is my personal shortcoming, but when the IDE pops up anything while I'm typing I find it very distracting and damaging to my flow. It feels like someone interrupting me every spoken syllable. And they commonly cover up other code.

I want help when I explicitly ask for it.

Younger devs might not have this issue.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#484

Post by ecoffey »

fpoling wrote: post #482
brabel wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only do I avoid using LSP features, but I’m also opposed to their use. While they can help with navigation, they may prevent developers from experiencing and addressing the underlying structural issues in their code. LSP by itself will not prevent anything. LSP (using the terminology from OP, but any IDE really) is just a tool like any other which allows you to do things faster. It doesn't matter how organized…

LSP optimizes writing the code. Yet debugging, reviewing and reading other people code take significantly more time than writing. If code is organized badly and go-to-definition or even moving the mouse to trigger the tooltip is required when doing those tasks, it makes the whole experiences worse.

> LSP optimizes writing the code.

I would actually phrase that as “LSP optimizes for understanding” (which is of course important for writing code).

For example, when doing code reviews I routinely pull the branch down and look at the diff in context of the rest of the code: “this function changed, who calls it?”, “what other tests are in this file?”, etc. An IDE/LSP is a powerful tool for understanding what is happening in a codebase regardless of author.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#485

Post by antihero »

fpoling wrote: post #482
brabel wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only do I avoid using LSP features, but I’m also opposed to their use. While they can help with navigation, they may prevent developers from experiencing and addressing the underlying structural issues in their code. LSP by itself will not prevent anything. LSP (using the terminology from OP, but any IDE really) is just a tool like any other which allows you to do things faster. It doesn't matter how organized…

LSP optimizes writing the code. Yet debugging, reviewing and reading other people code take significantly more time than writing. If code is organized badly and go-to-definition or even moving the mouse to trigger the tooltip is required when doing those tasks, it makes the whole experiences worse.

LSP optimises consumption of other code and reading/exploration of code. It's especially useful with types.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#487

Post by chikere232 »

troupo wrote: post #318
Matumio wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of? Text search will also find commented out usage, docu, changelog, and my .org file with refactoring ideas from last month. (For better or worse.) It will also show when a class with the same method names exists elsewhere - which you want to know about if the naming is good. To find usage of a method called "update", LSP results will be better, but... that was kind of the point? That you don't name your method…

> Text search will also find commented out usage, docu, changelog, and my .org file with refactoring ideas from last month Yes, when searching across the entire project for text an instant fuzzy search is an invaluable tool. > It will also show when a class with the same method names exists elsewhere Oh, this is a great example when a code -aware tool is better. I also ave a rant-ish about LSP at the end. So, let's s…

You seem weirdly angry that some other people like to work in a different way than you like to work. People like different things. You still get to like your thing.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#488

Post by ARandomerDude »

1. Memorization (i.e., knowledge) beats tooling every time.

2. Pain is the most effective way to learn.

I was a 90s kid, still just young enough to have my parents tell me to go get out a paper dictionary when I asked "what does this word mean?" It's amazing how much better it "sticks" when you have to stop, get up, open a book, and find the entry.

With a minimal vim setup, I find that I just know Linux, the language intricacies, and the codebase better than my coworkers – not because I'm smarter but because I have to manually look up things I don't know. It's slower in the moment but over time it is much, much faster.

For the same reason, I never copy/paste code that I could not have written from memory.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#489

Post by bazmattaz »

hliyan wrote: post #200

When you have a good mental model of the code base you're working on (and the libraries you use), you don't really need a lot of IDE features, and IDE features can sometimes hamper the formation of such a model. Let me explain: Twenty years ago, my IDE was two terminal windows running VI, vertically tiled. On the left, I open header files, and on the right, source files (I was a C++ programmer). When I wanted to look…

I’m not a developer but someone who is curious about development, can you explain what it means to have a good “mental model of the code”. Does that mean where you understand all code and what it does?

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#490

Post by johan914 »

dpcan wrote: post #42

I’ve been doing this a looooooong time. And that’s really about it. Every time a popup or tooltip covers code around my cursor I groan in agony. I’d probably use it if the tool tips just updated in the bottom right of my screen while I typed or something.

Emacs has completion preview mode, which shows the completion inline in grey text. This is what I prefer using at it does not block text, and I am only interested in the top completion 99% of the time.
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