Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#481

Post by bigiain » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:45 AM UTC

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #346

gleenn wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To continue that very last sentence, you are doing yourself a disservice, or like a lot of startups I think people just legitamately don't know how to value stocks and I think there is definitely a predatory nature to that. Perhaps I'm reflecting on my own experience too much, but at my first startup I never asked the simple question "Assuming this company IPOs or gets bought and exits, what is the most this stock wo…

When calculating expected value of private stock/options I multiply by a factor of ~10 at the end. There are so many unknown unknowns that significantly decrease the value of your equity. The equity agreements I have seen also give ultimate discretion to the board on how your equity is executed. You don’t have control over triggering events and also there are usually quite a few clauses with “at the discretion of the…

> When calculating expected value of private stock/options I multiply by a factor of ~10 at the end.

For early stage startups? I just go ahead and value them at zero. Ownership of equity in pre B series tech startup is, for me, about the same as ownership in a lottery ticket. It has some value in that it's fun to dream about what might happen, but that's pretty much it.

I am still likely to jump on start-up offers (I'm kinda waiting on two to form a little more fully right now) where I _know_ the salary will be below market rate, but where I also know the "mission" is something I care about and the team are people I want to work with. But I'm going to do that still valuing the equity at zero. If things work out like the pitch deck says, yeah maybe I'll make 7 figures out of it. But I'm not gonna assume that'll happen, even if the pitch deck success _does_ happen, I'd expect to have been diluted along the way to only end up with 6 or 5 figures.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#482

Post by unnamed38388 » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:46 AM UTC

joshmanders wrote: post #442

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exactly where in that schedule am I supposed to fit a FOUR HOUR coding assignment. That's ridiculous. Unless you're providing child care, this is simply too much. What do you do for normal on-site interviews or phone interviews that have similar time demands? I’m also a parent of small children with a packed schedule, but I’d much rather take a 4-hour take home and handle it on the weekend or when I’m flexible. Giv…

It’s easy really. Walk. As a senior it’s insulting to expect to do a four hour take home test. When you hire a Michelin star chef do you make them make you a four course meal to prove they can cook? Do you make a surgeon do four hour surgery? It’s absolutely asinine that we accept this behavior in our industry. You’d be laughed at by every possible candidate in other industries.

I immediately decline if a company asks for unpaid work as part of the interview process. If it’s paid I don’t have an issue with it. I assume if a company starts the relationship with asking for unpaid work that expectation will continue throughout your employment.

There are simply too many companies hiring that don’t require this that it’s easy to just pass.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#483

Post by __turbobrew__ » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:54 AM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #412

colordrops wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you value apple equity vs cash? I recently got a decent offer with a total comp higher than my current all cash salary, but rejected it as it seems that equity even in Apple is not a sure bet at the moment. Even with the generous offer that was greater than my current salary that they gave me a few months ago, it would still be worth less than my current job after the recent market dip. I asked for more equ…

Most financially savvy people would say that public company equity is almost like cash. If you are saving money for retirement, you are going to put most of your cash in the stock market, and AAPL and the stock market are highly correlated. The vesting schedule essentially forces you to save that cash for a later date (in a volatile but usually highly accretive investment vehicle). You don't have the same kinds of si…

We are talking about stock/option grants though. You have to factor in what you think the grant will be worth over the vesting period. A lot can happen to a public stock over 4 years and your grant can easily be worth an order of magnitude less once it vests.

Cash to a lesser extent has this problem as well that you don’t know how much a dollar will be worth in four years, but it most likely less volatile than the value of equity.

I would value a 4 year 500k grant in apple stock much higher than a 4 year 500k grant in a crypto company because I believe the apple grant will better hold it’s value over the vesting period.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#484

Post by phil-martin » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:54 AM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #448

PainfullyNormal wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then the interviews were basically friendly meet&greets but super informal, not a single coding test or take home assignment I have 20 years experience and this is completely alien to my experience. I've gotten lots of job referrals over the years, but all it did was get my foot in the door. From there, it was the standard interview process with whiteboarding and take home tests. What am I missing here?

The last seven job offers I got, "interviews" were friendly chat style with no coding test or assignment. Some of them asked a string of technical questions, some did not. Where there were technical questions I enjoyed answering them, it felt like a fun conversation and was interactive with the interviewer, and I was surprised how easy I found them, so they didn't take long. Some did a screen share with me where we l…

A close friend of mine once told me:

"You are ALWAYS being interviewed"

I didn't really understand what she meant, until a couple of years later a good opportunity came up from seemingly nowhere. I couldn't figure out how or why it happened, and it eventually ended up from a half dozen links in recommendations over the span of a year or more, all happening in the background.

I really enjoyed reading your comment, everything there resonates strongly.

Impressions matter, people and networks matter, and being honest to who you are and being brave enough to show that to the world in a respectful way pays off in the long run.

And to tie it back to the original poster, instead of relying on job ads, also engaging with networks of people to find others can be hugely beneficial. These networks are bidirectional. People will make recommendations based on how your company behaves and what it is like to work there.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#485

Post by gleenn » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:55 AM UTC

mym1990 wrote: post #432

pclmulqdq wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most financially savvy people would say that public company equity is almost like cash. If you are saving money for retirement, you are going to put most of your cash in the stock market, and AAPL and the stock market are highly correlated. The vesting schedule essentially forces you to save that cash for a later date (in a volatile but usually highly accretive investment vehicle). You don't have the same kinds of si…

I would say take what most 'financially savvy' people say with a grain of salt and go ahead and do your own research or find an actual professional to sort through the details. The average lifespan of a company on the S&P 500 is dropping fairly quickly, which puts the risk of a single investment going to 0(or on a long haul downward trend) higher.

Obviously "doing your own research" is good but I think the question is totally reasonable in a tech forum where probably a very large percentage of people here have gone through this process. Also, they asked specifically about Apple. Companies that are sitting on massive amounts of cash and have trillion dollar valuations don't disappear over night, they're not gonna "drop out of the S&P" any time in the foreseeable future.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#486

Post by unnamed38388 » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:56 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #429

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, as someone with three kids I'd much rather do a take-home 4 hour assignment than the usual round of interviews since I can work the former into my schedule however I like.

Agreed. Take-homes we’re greatly preferred by our candidates with families because they could be done on a weekend or in their spare time. I’m also a parent of small kids with a busy schedule. Despite the packed schedule and demands of raising kids, it would be a huge exaggeration to suggest that I couldn’t find 4 hours of time to do a take-home if given a week of time (as is common). The parent commenter might have…

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#487

Post by SMAAART » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:56 AM UTC

I see 2 weak points, possibly 3:

#1 "Resume screened by in-house recruiter", my experience is that they are not very well versed at "screening", they leave out individuals who are 97% qualifies, at the same time they screen in technically unqualified individuals who know how to play the "screening game". Get someone technical to do the screening.

#2 "though salary isn't posted in the ad" if it's good, why not disclose it?

#3 (Maybe) who does the 30m call? see #1 above.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#488

Post by niuzeta » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:56 AM UTC

lbrito wrote: post #192

corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

>have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. Wow. I have 10 years of work experience, the last few being "senior". I have a few friends and many recruiters I could reach out to, but absolutely expecting a full fledged 30-round interview like anyone else. I envy you!

Likewise. I do envy the GP. Currently looking for work, and this has not been my experience.

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#489

Post by bigiain » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:57 AM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #139

corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

> Alternatively, perhaps pay people to complete the assignments.

That doesn't solve the majority of the "senior position" problem.

Like you point out, your schedule does not have a "spare" 4 hour block in it, and paying you $1000 to find one is not going to make you jump at the opportunity if the alternative is a different role that is not asking for a 4 hour block of your family time.

Anybody recruiting for "senior roles" needs to understand the 30-40 year olds, who are the only people who have the professional experience you're seeking, cannot be recruited like fresh college grads who can blast through pointless coding tests between 11pm and 3am, and do that 3 or 4 times a week and at least some off whom will genuinely enjoy doing so.

My first production code shipped for MacOS 7.5 and Windows 3.1. I am still shipping production code (although only rarely since these days I'm mostly managing a team rather than coding daily). I am _not_ going to do your take home 4hr assignment no matter who you are or what you're offering. Asking me to do it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of who I am, and I am not going to take a job with someone who knows that little about me. (And I have way better things to do with my free time than your pointless test)

Re: Ask HN: Having trouble getting senior applicants, wondering what to do about it

#490

Post by marktangotango » Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 1:57 AM UTC

anon291 wrote: post #139

corrral wrote: post #21

> Take-home technical assignment (~4h) or similar at candidate's choosing If I can get a similarly-paying job at a place that doesn't do this, I'll skip you. Many seniors ( actual seniors, not 3-years-of-experience seniors) have a network and can say "hey I'm looking" and instantly have multiple options that won't have them do more than talk to the team and manager for an hour or two. If that.

The thing with 4hr technical assignments is that you're saying no to anyone with kids, which I'm going to venture applies to more senior people than juniors. I used to do these assignment. Now I simply don't sorry. My schedule is 6:30 AM wake up with youngest daughter, to let wife sleep in (she takes care of her all night) 9:00 AM hand off youngest daughter to wife, who takes both girls the rest of the day. I go to m…

> 11:00 PM sleep until 6:30 the next day

Dude, if your wife is getting up multiple times a night, you really ought to consider stepping in and helping out. True males can't do the feeding, but if there is anyway you can help out with this, I guarantee your wife will be grateful. If your kids sleep then ignore this, but sleep deprivation is hell (to most people). My wife and I both worked and we slept in 4 hour shifts, then when they slept more, we went to night on then night off. Saved our marriage.