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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#481

Post by arcturus17 »

irrational wrote: post #407
oneplane wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that with all your knowledge you can't see that even if that is a universally desirable situation it isn't scalable.

To the entire population? No. To developers in Europe? I would say yes. If we can have similar benefits to what they have, they can have similar pay to what we have.

Well you’re situation sounds a bit extreme, and at the extremes there are also people making 6 figures in Europe, especially in the UK and maybe some central/north countries.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#482

Post by euengtaway50 »

ergocoder wrote: post #464
quantumofalpha wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe. Proprietary trading shops in London at the top end or L6+ at Google Zurich can pay that in total comp. > I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook. And what about stocks? There should be at least another 100k in them. Facebook is a publicly tradable company, its RSUs are as good as cash…

Sure, but the base salary for the React creator shouldn't be that low. That's like a new grad engineer at twitter if we simply compare base salary.

That's 100k pounds, not dollars, and he's making more in RSUs. I also imagine he's an E5, because E6 salaries in London are higher than that.

To be honest, given how Facebook works, all the work he does in React/Redux is probably hindering him in terms of getting promotions.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#483

Post by ivan1783 »

esoterica wrote: post #218
say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #35

Americans are hired at-will, with barely any job protection, where as Europeans received far more protection and regulations governing paid time off, universal healthcare and so forth. You're not being paid as much as Americans in Europe but you're also treated far more humanely. I think the question isn't how to increase wages in Europe but how to get the rest of the world to adopt Sweden's labor laws, assuming it h…

Taking a $200k pay cut to get a couple weeks of extra vacation, government healthcare (which is only a marginal upgrade if you already have high quality private insurance) and better job security seems like a raw deal to me.

Not having to save for your kids education will already offset that, if you look at American university prices.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#484

Post by dr_dshiv »

titanomachy wrote: post #421
ilikeerp wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not insane - it's pretty common in most developed countries. The US is a major outlier.

In many developed countries, 42% tax would cover healthcare, a pension you can actually live off of, and fully-paid education for all of your children. Californians get none of those things, and I don't really understand what it is that they get over (e.g.) Washingtonians for the extra ~30% in taxes.

In the states, tax is obscure but painful -- you feel it when you pay it, like a sales tax not included in the price or a complicated tax form. In Europe, tax is hidden but smooth -- like a VAT built into the cost of everything or a 3-box tax form (in NL)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#486

Post by crossroadsguy »

comp_throw7 wrote: post #391
fy20 wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading your comment gave me a thought... maybe a better way of looking at the difference in salaries is that living in the EU is better value for money than living in the US. In pretty much all of the EU, even in expensive cities like Stockholm or Dublin, if you earn a salary of €100,000, you can live a pretty decent life. Heck even on €50,000, you can do well in a lot of places. Good luck doing the same in any of t…

There is a sense in which a non-trivial chunk of those productivity gains are eaten up by rent-seeking (in SF/NY, the high rents are literally rent-seeking in that they're the result of deliberate manipulation of local laws & regulations around housing & zoning for the benefit of existing homeowners). Even there, though, a single person can live quite nicely on 100k USD (or 120k USD, if going from 100k Euro), if they…

You were comparing apples and oranges in living standards. The moment you inserted roommates, it became apples and bananas. By the time you will reach public transport, safety etc - it will be apples and cookies.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#487

Post by ivan1783 »

artemonster wrote: post #466
ivan1783 wrote: post #459

Been working in Europe for about 10 years now with "low" wages as a Hardware Engineer (6 figures US). Sorry but America seems like a third world country compared with what we get here. I have: 35 days vacation per year, 35 hour work week, overtime pay, free education, childcare money each month, healthcare that wont bankrupt me if I lose my job, up to 3 years in parental leave (6 mo. paid), probably other things whic…

What is a salary range for a hardware engineer? Can you shed some light, just a rough number?

I work at a unionised company, our union is called IG Metall. You can google the EG (entgelt) levels - engineers range from EG14-17 + an additional % each month (depending on your productivity range from 10-25% of brutto on top) + we get 14 salaries instead of 12 (roughly - union agreement). https://www.igmetall.de/download/docs_MuE_ERA_Entgelte_Juni2...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#488

Post by knuthsat »

benjaminl wrote: post #417
arcticbull wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're making 100K in California, your marginal tax rate is: - Federal: 24% - State: 9.3% - FICA: 7.65% (6.2% social security, 1.45% medicare) - SDI: 1% This gets you to 42%. Your employer matches the FICA payments too, so that's closer to 50% of your take-home pay. Once you make enough to pay off the regressive FICA taxes ($142K) you get bumped back down to "just" the mid-high 30% range briefly, until you hit $16…

Don’t forget the 10.25% sales tax. This puts the combined marginal tax rate at 59.85%. (24 + 9.3 + 7.65 + 7.65 + 1 + 10.25)

In Croatia the total would be about 63%. If you go through capital gains (no paycheck just profit after corporate tax, capital income tax and VAT) it's 53%. It could go down if some company expenses can be used for your life expenses.

In Austria the total is 75%. In Austria going through capital gains would still be 70%.

I'm very disappointed at how much money Europe sucks out of my work.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#489

Post by euengtaway50 »

ff232fffffrt wrote: post #327
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If hypothetically every engineer at Apple hired in 2017 got $100k/yr https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple&track=Software%20Engin... ICT2: $165k ICT3: $214k ICT4: $315k ICT5: $440k ICT6: $681k Point: $100k/yr total comp is pretty low for Apple's standards.

I am a software developer for 15 years and I don't know a single developer who make more than 100K$ a year in Germany (I only talk about regular employment and not about freelancers, because freelancers can work overtime and get bills from other countries including USA).

Where are you based and who are you talking to? 100k USD is just 82k€, which is easily achievable even in places like Zalando.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#490

Post by pm90 »

newswasboring wrote: post #458
pm90 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get protection by the US military and promotion of Californian business interests throughout the world through Federal institutions. Not to mention: friction free access to a large labor pool and US domestic market etc. I get your point that the US doesn’t provide as much social services as other developed nations. Almost all these nations depend on US hegemony to not have to spend as much on their military. Thi…

I don't want to address the hegemony point beyond I disagree on the need or even effectiveness of US military. But I would want to point out the curious phrasing and of your first paragraph and what that says about USA way of thinking. All these points are business targeted while all european points are individual targeted.

> But I would want to point out the curious phrasing and of your first paragraph and what that says about USA way of thinking. All these points are business targeted while all european points are individual targeted.

I don't think there is anything curious about this way of thinking. And US hegemony plays directly into this!

Pre-World Wars, European nations had their colonies and their militaries and the priority of thinking was along similar lines: access to expansive markets, large pools of labor, protection of business interests etc, chiefly through colonies.

WW2 changed all of that, reducing European nations to client states (no disrespect) of the US, that funded their reconstruction. Colonialism was no longer allowed, and European nations could not freely pursue foreign markets without competing with US companies, which would always get precedence. With no real way to compete with the US militarily, and with NATO aligning with their immediate geo-political needs anyways, European nations invested heavily on Social Services, rather than blow up their military budgets. This geopolitical equation hasn't changed post WW2 and you have generations of people that consider social services as the primary function of their Government.

However, its a fundamental mistake to assume that a Government can provide effective social services without having a strong economy. Strong economies require successful businesses.

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