The problem is that software work is very similar to being a novelist. And very few successful novelists are able to crank out lines of content for 8/hours a day. It is draining, but it is also work that can be leveraged by a huge amount. If a million people use my code or buy my novel, I have generated huge amounts of value. It doesn't matter if it took me 2 years to write the book or 1 month. I'm still able to make a living off of the revenue from that book. Same thing with code. If a software company is generating 5M a year you can afford to hire a team of developers to maintain it. Even if they are all not working 40 hours a week.
Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
471–480 of 1001 posts
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#472Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#473Earlier quoted context omitted.
An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, “only a little while.” The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The M…
This parable is completely unrelated to the topic at hand unless you add in some catch like > The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. > I don't catch them. I just go to one of the other fisherman's boats from my company and take a few of their tuna. That way they get up at 5am and work there asses off and all I have to do is carry a couple of their tu…
What an incredibly odd moral distinction, if you step back and think about it from an objective perspective. As long as there exists an idle class that lives off of previously accumulated capital (including intellectual or social capital), 5-10 hours a week will be a commendable contribution to society in my book.
Why does owning a business exempt you from contributing to society? That's an extraordinarily value-laden judgement.
So. If we're going to moralize like this, I'll flip the tables and assert that receiving stock dividends from companies at which you've never worked is theft that should be criminalized ;-)
Morality is no guide here because we immediately happen upon deep issues of political-economy. It's more productive to focus on the law. OP's employer carefully chose their corporate structure and hired devs into exempt salaried roles FOR A REASON. If they want him to work a certain number of hours and have recourse if he doesn't, then they can switch the role to hourly non-exempt. They won't. For a reason.
Excusing all the ways in which corporations short-change tech workers while moralizing about watercooler talk or reddit time or whatever is textbook master-slave morality.
General hard agreement on the "is this really how you want to spend your life?" comments, though.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#474I don’t think that what you’re doing is very common, but it’s not uncommon either. What you need to do this is to work in an environment where not being productive is not harmful. There are plenty of environments like this. For example, not doing any work but still getting paid doesn’t do any harm at Google. The company is making money anyway. At a small startup that’s under immense pressure people would realise what…
As someone who worked at both Microsoft and Google... you can get await with doing little work at those companies for maybe a year, two years at most, but after that you're gone. The expectation at those places skyrockets after the first year.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#475Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…
Just want to say that I am the same as pretty much everything you said. Job is to make for a good life. I will also say, most discussion usually paints the devs not working as much as less productive, whether explicitly or implicitly. But that isn't necessarily true either. I'm the top contributor for this calendar year at my company (public but not F500, about 100 developers) but averaging ~4 hours a day of actual w…
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#476My problem with slackers is that they make productive devs feel like suckers.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#477My suspicion (and the way I read your post) is that you're meeting expectations, so sometimes at standup you have to diplomatically say, "Yeah I didn't really do much but I'm still on track".
If that's the case, I honestly see nothing wrong. I do this myself from time-to-time, and it's usually due to poorly defined requirements. It's always a phase and eventually I'll have moments of brilliance—churning out days of code in just a few hours. But honestly, that's normal for me. I know nothing different if that's wrong or bad.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#478I think in order to work more effectively, you might want to try to both motivate yourself and slow down your work process/set reasonable goals. Since you are currently not achieving much, it should be easy to increase your output. One of the reasons you aren't doing that may (or may not) be that you are afraid of failure.
In my opinion, you can't go far wrong if you make steady slow progress. Don't set the bar high. Just keep identifying the next thing you could be working on in order to complete your project, and work on that. This doesn't mean that you need to be working continuously, but I think that if you work slowly, with curiosity rather than urgency, you'll enjoy working more, and you'll find that you're able to keep at it more than you are doing now. Be sure to take time to chat and socialize and feel grounded.
Always Be Starting - It's hard to start working on something. Just trust that if you start working on the tiniest part, you'll have a much easier time of continuing to work. You just need to get started.
Edit: I also find that being joyful helps put me in a good state of mind for working. Being anxious does the opposite. I have also found meditation to be beneficial.
Edit 2: You may find this helpful:
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#479Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#480Software development isn't a matter of sitting down and generating a fixed amount of code per hour. The rate of writing code is hugely variable. It's not unusual for most of my "productive" (as in typing actual code) time to be concentrated in a few particular days in a month. The time not spent typing (or being in meetings, doing admin, etc) isn't actually "unproductive" though. It's mostly spent solving problems, a…
All true statements, but that's not what we're talking about. OP recognizes that he works 5-10 hours a week, and effectively blows the rest of the day off.
Reminds me a bit of an engineer who reported to me a few years ago. He would describe every week in our 1:1s and during team meetings how he was solving this tough thread-synchronization problem. Because we trusted each other, we trusted that the problem was difficult. Then when he finally submitted his code, it was a single line. A single trivial line (as in, read the python `multiprocessing` docs for 5 minutes and the solution is right there). OK... sometimes it can take a long time to find that one-line fix, I get it. But then I looked into his commit history, and it turns out he was averaging a few lines of code a week -- on a good week, and sometimes even zero. When I confronted him, he said "You can't measure my productivity by lines of code!!!" OK, sure, but how far am I supposed to excuse an engineer who has committed 100 lines of code in 10 months? What a statistical oddity, that every single task he took on turned out to be a single-line-fix dragon!