I'm a little different... I love programming and am "okay" with software engineering. But my first several years coding were in Lisp, so I developed an idiosyncratic style, and have to "tone down the lispiness" when coding with other people. I enjoy working w/ other people, but would love it if there were more people who's brains were twisted the same way mine is.
Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
461–470 of 733 posts
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#462Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't really get why any of that matters though. Can't you just appreciate the sentiment regardless of how it is phrased? Seems like your trying to make it political when it just isn't.
Maybe you should think about who is actually making it political, i.e. the people trying to transform the phrase into something politically correct.
Idk man sounds like they’re just taking a phrase and phrasing it slightly differently so that it applies to more people. You’re the one who was offended by that
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#463When I read the title I was curious what definition of “engineering” would be in play. I wouldn’t call the process around programming and problem solving “engineering”. I’d just call that “process”, or “overhead”, or (when feeling like speaking plainly, “inefficiency”). Who loves that? It’s necessary, but loving it certainly isn’t necessary (or even good?).
I’d call the problem solving that balances technical, human, economic factors and produces great code “engineering”. Knocking out code on a whim less so.
My message is just be careful who you’re speaking to when saying you don’t want to engineer — I’m my book you do.
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#464Every few months or so we get these really circle jerky posts by engineers who believe the world of business is them just pumping out code and somehow getting paid. 1) that’s the difference between a job and a hobby. You do the hard parts you’re paid to do sometimes. 2) decisions you don’t like by stakeholders you don’t like aren’t always wrong just because you see some way to “code it”. A product is not just its cod…
No one is talking about running a business. We're talking about code bureaucracy. I don't like front end, still happy to do it though, the issue is mandatory meetings, code reviews, design docs, and tests to make a simple UI change.
Run a business, talk to stakeholders, make sales, but don't make programming so unpalatable that it moves at a glacial pace. Tell me what to do then let me do the thing you pay me to, and that is to puke out high quality code.
All of the code bureaucracy features have their place but I don't think they're needed for every change.
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#465Earlier quoted context omitted.
> agile has killed the happiness...meetings...rituals...meta-work...not actual productivity. All of that isn't actual agile. It's Fauxgile and has nothing to do with what agile is about, which is about removing impediments to productivity, removing meetings (why were there standups? Because they shouldn't exist in the first place, and if you absolutely positively can't avoid them then at least make them as short as p…
Agile is like socialism at times.
Big A agiles is more like capitalism. Tricking the plebs into working to the bone for a promise that never materialises
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#466To quote the book by Google software engineers, “Software engineering is programming integrated over time”.
Programming is writing code at one snapshot in time.
Software engineering is mapping that code backwards and forwards through time, making sure it works with what comes before and what comes after, in both technical and business aspects.
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#467You take seems to be "I like some parts of programming/SE but not other parts".
I like:
- Designing and architecting software
- Writing new code (e.g. new project or feature)
- Refactoring and rewriting existing code
- Automation: finding new ways to do things faster and eliminate mechanical processes (not just new tools, but knowledge, e.g. learning algorithms so that when I see a need for one I just up an existing library or snippet instead of re-discovering it myself)
- Using Linux and command line tools (related to automation, but also setting up big servers and processes is cool)
I don't like:
- Debugging
- Writing "hacky" code (prefer to write code which should last long and be maintainably)
- Testing
- Sprint/agile and other long processes
- Certain languages (e.g. JavaScript) and
I really don't like:
- Working on projects where the code quality is bad
- Anything mechanical which can't be automated for some reason
Anyways the point is that different people like working on different things, a decent number of people like doing most of the things which you hate and vice versa. So you sgould try to the right job and position where you can work more on the stuff you like, and less on the stuff you don't like. It's not software engineering which is the problem, it's certain parts of software engineering, and while you like can't entirely avoid all of those parts, in the right company I'm sure you can focus less on them and more of the parts you do like. Or, you can always try to get some easy job for the sake of getting paid, and do side projects and open-source work
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#468Simple hints for your type
* Find smaller company
* If possible find company that does some real business and needs software to run it. These are the best from my experience. I am not an employee but this is how I find my clients.
* If you hear words agile, process, methodology start from the beginning
* On the interview you should be asked what have you accomplished and how, how you could help to solve their problem.
* If instead they would start grilling you on what that tiny dot in this particular language means, ask you to complete particular tests, write code during interview start from the beginning
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#469It’s going to sound a bit harsh, but what you hate is engineering discipline. Every engineer I know absolutely hates it but it’s like being an adult. There’s a ton of things that suck but it’s important to do in order to survive. Most process suck and some are even bloated. But they’re there usually for a reason (mostly good). No good product is sustainable without engineers with good discipline.
One thing that I find frustrating with engineering is that sometimes this discipline is followed very perfunctorily. I think that's where at least some of the complaints are coming from. One thing that tends to irk me is when I'm in a culture that doesn't take code review seriously, and just hits approve on every PR/MR/CS because it would be rude not to.
It's not that the discipline is frustrating, it's the ceremony that's frustrating.
That said I think you have a point.
Re: Ask HN: Do you hate software engineering but love programming?
#470Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm talking about product design, not technical design. But I don't think specifications help in the long term there, either. I think the way you get designs that are understood by both old-timers and newcomers is continuous improvement of the code through refactoring and cleanup.
> I'm talking about product design, not technical design. Even worse!
Ok? I'm telling you I have done it and it works well. If all you want to do is squawk about it, I guess I'll make my exit here.