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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#451
"Less haste more speed"

Maybe part of it is that when you do do something, it actually counts. And you don't waste time in perfectionism or ideology.

This would make you a 10x developer, but it mightn't scale up to a 40 hour week, because the non-working time will partly be used to assess what is really necesaary.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#452
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

Trust me, this also applies to smaller companies.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#453
It took some growing up on my part to realize the fundamental value in "If you do something, do it well".

I used to be very much in favor of "getting by" and a "good enough is good enough" mentally. After all, it's the rational point of view. Why work more, if you can work less? But the truth of the matter is that once you put your entire being into something, you immediately find value in it. Anything you do fully, however menial, magically becomes worthwhile and fills you with a sense of pride and accomplishment.

Atleast that's my experience. If you want a random person's advice, I'd say try it out and see for yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#454
In lieu of an economic system that redistributes gains in productivity, arguable anyone involved in automation SHOULD be "working" less and less. If your job duties are fulfilled by a weekly bash script , and you were hired to perform those duties weekly, i dont see why you shouldnt be paid for delivering the work and reap the reward of spending that time on personal projects / charity / hobbies

Also like others said passive processing - chewing on an issue for 4 days and having the breakthrough in 20 minutes - if you only were paid for the 20 minutes it would be completely unsustainable, you would constantly grind and not recieve the rewards for that exponential (and humanly impossible) rise in productivity

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#455
post #106

Software development isn't a matter of sitting down and generating a fixed amount of code per hour. The rate of writing code is hugely variable. It's not unusual for most of my "productive" (as in typing actual code) time to be concentrated in a few particular days in a month. The time not spent typing (or being in meetings, doing admin, etc) isn't actually "unproductive" though. It's mostly spent solving problems, a…

Well, they said they don’t do anything some days and bullshit their way to the next standup. It is clear to me where they stand at.

> Well, they said they don’t do anything some days and bullshit their way to the next standup. It is clear to me where they stand at.

But it's the agile standups that force the bullshitting. If you spent a day background thinking of best ways to achieve the goal while resting in your backyard hammock, there's no way you can say that out loud at the standup. So you're forced to come up with some random bullshit to fill your standup minutes.

That's why daily status reports are so incredibly toxic in any creative or intellectual field. Progress doesn't happen in neat daily chunks like that.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#456

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

I'm hoping to follow after your example.... at some point. Really want to do something with my time that feels worth it. But the difficulty of starting over is this intimidating mountain that I look out my window at each day, behind a forest with no visible path. I wonder when I'll finally get fed up enough to strap on some boots and head out into the wilderness.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#457
I worked at Intel for 20+ years and I felt like I was worked into the ground until I had to quit from exhaustion. I was promoted constantly for the first 15 years, I always had more work than I could finish, and most of my work was a rush to meet a deadline.

No, I never lied. It was exhausting.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#459
I don’t mind working fulltime or overtime when the duty calls, but my professional sanity levels drop quickly after 4-5 hours a day, even if I want to do things. Sometimes faster. Some mornings I don’t even feel to care, and arrive only after noon (my superiors know that, I’m not lying to them). I also have observed and discussed it with other people, including management, and they agree that there is no reason to push developers to the limit in “peaceful” times, because 1) these reservoirs aren’t endless, 2) sometimes it’s better to just slack off than to hackathon yet another bullshit solution for a problem. Just go and sleep on it, you know. I also know a guy from mid-management of a huge local company and he said that even planned allocation in busy departments barely exceeds 40% (3+ hours/day) and bragged that he could bring it up to around 60%. I think they definitely have people who just do nothing on a daily basis, or report things like “I rotated keys in two servers yesterday, three more to go”, because nobody really knows anymore what that operation comprises.

Most of us developers and our managers perfectly understand that it’s not a paper-turning job and they really have no better options out there. In practice there is no supermen, only idiots who break things eventually in various ways. (Sorry if you, reader, are a rockstar developer. Nothing personal, but I’m tired to clean out these Augean stables)

The only exception is the flow, when I can shut the door and code straight through a day in a field that is completely my competence.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#460
post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwaway for this one... It's possible that you've got cause and effect the wrong way round: consider maybe that your self worth is derived mostly from your extracurricular activities because you're failing at work. You put almost no effort in, achieve very little, are almost entirely disengaged, but, since you're a normal human, being a loser doesn't fit your self-image so you look to find meaning elsewhere in area…

> consider maybe that your self worth is derived mostly from your extracurricular activities because you're failing at work. You say that like it's a bad thing. I would much rather my self worth be derived from the things that I choose to do, versus something I have to do in order to survive.

This doesn't have to be either/or. Once upon a time, your "work" would've been weaving baskets or gathering berries or whatever, and you would get immediate satisfaction from seeing how you are improving your own life and the lives of those around you. Nowadays, for a lot of us, the connection between doing work and improving the world is very tenuous, maybe non-existent; but it doesn't follow that it never existed or that it's gone for good. I know a lot of people who genuinely get a sense of accomplishment from their job, including people who do stuff that seems pretty pointless (a lot of the software industry, honestly) in the grand scheme of things.

The bottom line is, you have to find a way to get satisfaction from somewhere to be mentally healthy, and if have to work anyway, getting some satisfaction out of it is preferable to not getting any.

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