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Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

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Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh! Probably blind to this somewhat because I'm a guy, but I haven't seen this at the tech jobs I'm at in NJ. Realistically, you speak to different genders differently without realizing it, but I have always worked in highly-diverse environments (I wouldn't want to ever work somewhere where I saw all XYZ gender or race working there) and it has been fine.

nah, I've worked with companies who rank incoming female Interns by hotness and argue over who gets to date her and try to bash other male employees and fight over them for projects before they ever have the first day at the office. This has happened in 3 workplaces I know of.

What industry?

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#452
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially my boss: if my boss is going to be a white dude, he had better have publicly condemned sexism in a way that feels constructive and genuine to me. This is such a weird statement to me. If it works for you, fine, but I think it's bad advice: to demand that not only your boss be active on social media, but to actively pursue your preferred topics on same.

Yeah I cringed when I read that. Opinions like that are why we have Trump. Why do non white guys get a pass on sexism? The racism of lower expectations is so pervasive of white women in tech it's absolutely disgusting

Men of color don't get a pass on sexism, but that particular screening tool isn't effective because of the racism many of them face. The cost to them of publicly supporting marginalized people is higher, whereas it doesn't have any cost professionally for white men (citation from the Harvard Business Review: https://hbr.org/2016/03/women-and-minorities-are-penalized-f...) Thus, if white men don't do it, it's a pretty good signal, whereas if men of color don't do it, it doesn't tell me anything.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#453
post #442
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand military culture. Basic training is about preparing you to survive battle. The reason skin color matters less to the military is because they are "blood brothers" -- they have each other's back and keep each other alive, which is an effective means to help people stop sweating the small stuff, like how much melanin the skin of various members contains.

I was just simplifying. I get that Basic is supposed to bring people together. I think the blood brothers things is a bit extreme for most but totally accurate for those unlucky few seeing combat directly. The majority of our armed forced sit in office chairs and man logistics records. FYI, I worked on a military base, and my Father and Mother were both military. I don't have conventional biases against it.

Basic training does a great many more things than bring people together. And I was also trying to simplify. I see no real need to get into this tangent and nitpick it to death. It isn't really pertinent to the topic at hand.

Peace.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#454
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible that we are on the same page, but from your choice of language, I feel you are still subtly missing my point. You talk about "accommodating women more" in order to "balance a culture that's traditionally male-dominated." My point is that we also need to accommodate men more to balance that culture. Again, just for example, if I want to be an equal partner in raising my child (and I like to think I am),…

Considering that US federal law seems to be gender agnostic, from skimming Wikipedia, I'm not so sure about this criticism. At least there seems to be a ground work for caring for parents and not only mothers. While I agree with your sentiment (as a father with ~18 month parental leave behind me) It would be nice to know if there are common policies that are problematic in your view.

You seem to misunderstand. I don't object to the policies; I am strongly in favour of them. After all, I benefit from them as well. I object to it being characterized as primarily a women's issue. That does a disservice to both sexes 1) by implying that women's gender is the problem when it is not, and 2) by failing to recognize that in order to live a balanced life, men need exactly the same policies. In other words, it is not a "women's issue," it is a "human issue."

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#455
post #114

I look for existing diversity, and of underrepresented minorities not just gender diversity (IME this is often a better signal.) Especially in upper levels: the % of Software Engineer 1s matters a lot less than the % of architects and tech leads. Second (and I kind of hate to give this one away), I ask "what do you sacrifice when recruiting to ensure diversity?" The answer should be either "it takes us longer to recr…

You can tell my strategies are possibly effective because of all the sexist men in these comments who are apparently deeply concerned that I will never work for them, or perhaps that they might accidentally end up in an organization that isn't sexist. Le horror!

Note that these attempts to drive our discussions and opinions from Hacker's News and deprive us of the opportunity to express our preferences all help maintain discrimination and the economic power a limited workforce provides. Men are so scared that they might have to compete on a level playing field, or possibly even be held accountable for their actions, that they externalize that fear onto women trying to get by in an actively-hostile world.

Dear men who are offended when people acknowledge the reality of sexism: I guarantee you, I have spent more time thinking about this than you. I had to, a fact of which I am already resentful, thanks everso. Consider before you comment that I know what I'm talking about, and that way you've assumed I don't? It is a manifestation of the very problem we are discussing. Every time you express your uninformed opinions that start from the assumption that the world is fair, you are proving that you are unprepared to contribute to this discussion.

I don't want to work in an implicitly or explicitly sexist environment. You want to somehow get to participate in the patriarchal norms, not face any criticism for that, and then still somehow have me want to work with you. As The Man In Black says, get used to disappointment. Your desired outcome isn't one of the options.

Instead of attempting reassuring your existing cultural cognition (http://www.culturalcognition.net/), try listening to the generous gifts of experience the women and marginalized people have offered in response to the question that was asked. You might learn that there is more to the world than you had known. That will make you a better developer, as well as someone I might someday be willing to work with.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#456
post #455
post #114

I look for existing diversity, and of underrepresented minorities not just gender diversity (IME this is often a better signal.) Especially in upper levels: the % of Software Engineer 1s matters a lot less than the % of architects and tech leads. Second (and I kind of hate to give this one away), I ask "what do you sacrifice when recruiting to ensure diversity?" The answer should be either "it takes us longer to recr…

You can tell my strategies are possibly effective because of all the sexist men in these comments who are apparently deeply concerned that I will never work for them, or perhaps that they might accidentally end up in an organization that isn't sexist. Le horror! Note that these attempts to drive our discussions and opinions from Hacker's News and deprive us of the opportunity to express our preferences all help maint…

i've been loving all of your comments. +1 to you! #rolemodelsmatter

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#457

Silicon valley culture used to be that way, and is still that way. The cube farms was the prevailing best practice. Then the pendulum swung to the other side with the new kids entering the workforce and wanted open office, work families, and all that. Which then created the cargo culting from others entering the process. Now we're on the bubble of the pendulum swinging back. So it goes.

Bullshit. nobody wanted open floor plans, or if they did, they had immediate buyers remorse. Open floor plans became a fad that turned into a way for cheap ass companies to slash costs and brag about it on linkedin about how trendy they were being.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#458

Silicon valley culture used to be that way, and is still that way. The cube farms was the prevailing best practice. Then the pendulum swung to the other side with the new kids entering the workforce and wanted open office, work families, and all that. Which then created the cargo culting from others entering the process. Now we're on the bubble of the pendulum swinging back. So it goes.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14492303 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#459
post #433
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially my boss: if my boss is going to be a white dude, he had better have publicly condemned sexism in a way that feels constructive and genuine to me. This is such a weird statement to me. If it works for you, fine, but I think it's bad advice: to demand that not only your boss be active on social media, but to actively pursue your preferred topics on same.

As David Morrison said, the standard you walk past is the standard you accept. "How to signal you are on the side of non-sexists instead of the sexists" is probably a different thread, though: the original poster wanted to know what strategies marginalized developers had found effective and I shared mine. It is unsurprising to me that effective strategies end up rubbing people the wrong way. The reason social media p…

It seems to me that in an attempt to avoid one type of toxic environment, you've gone to another extreme. What you're really screening for is an environment where everyone is similar to yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#460
post #250

I think the key thing for people to realise is that none of what you just said has anything to do with women . Meet your direct manager. Make sure you get along with them. Make sure people give off 'good vibes' i.e. you get along with them. Talk to people, get to know them. This is just basic people skills. The interview is about you evaluating them as much as it is about them evaluating you.

It has to do with being a woman because she said it did, in answer to a question about that. You've changed the subject, in a belittling way ("just").

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14490803 and marked it off-topic.

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