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Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

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Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#441
I work with companies that hire us to do exactly what you're describing. I've seen this go bad every way you can imagine. Here's some of the top mistakes.

1. Expecting employees to support a project like this and do their regular day jobs. They can't. One will suffer, probably the one that is new and unfamiliar. This will frustrate the team working on the project (whether it's in house, freelancer or contract firm).

You can hire some new people first and train them up in a short time to take simple tasks off longer term employees plates so they can spend some percentage of their time supporting the project. Don't hire new people to support the project, they don't understand your business well enough. This is a cost of doing this type of project that is often ignored. And don't allocate something small like 10% of employees time. It should be at least 50%.

2. Expecting the project team to get all the requirements. Understand, in detail, what you need to build. This is not the time for agile. You have a known system that you want to replace. You aren't discovering a new application space. You can run the project with sprints, agile rituals etc. But don't do requirements throughout the project. Get them up front so the team knows what they are building and can architect it appropriately. This is a topic that I could write pages about but you will wish you had better specified requirements no matter how well you do them. You can carve out a small piece of the application at first to limit the scope but that piece needs full reqs.

3. Get something done and in the hands of your users now. I like to start with a checklist of a process. Replace one item on that checklist. Repeat.

     login to system
     click shipping
     fill in manifest -> identified as the piece to replace. 
     check schedule on calendar tab
becomes

     login to system
     click shipping
     fill in manifest
         login to new system
         export manifest data
         import into new system
     check schedule on calendar tab
4. Setup your development, testing and production environments and keep them in sync.

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#442

This is a variation on the "build vs. buy" question that has been active in IT for decades. And answered for decades, too. Building something yourself makes sense only when that something drives the unique value prop from your business. But if your needs are something that is more generic, buy it. So it all comes down to what you said about operating in a specific niche. If that niche is your value prop, and the reas…

Yes, and also when you hire software developers you want someone who understands that they are running internal tools which is COMPLETELY different from building consumer apps. Simplicity is key. Keep the team small and lean. Also the build vs buy decision has to be made with every feature. If its not your competitive advantage just buy it. Dont make a new database, just use postgres etc. There are a different set of…

Yes, those are great points. You'd really want a team of devs who have worked in the enterprise IT world, as that is the business environment we're talking about here. You'd want a group who will get everything working, coding only what is needed, and integrating other solutions when the feature is a commodity.

Code is an important tool, and also a liability. Hire devs that understand that.

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#443
Just wanted to add in, even as someone who isn't super experienced in the field (1.5 years of contracting on top of 6ish years programming in grad school), I find logistics an incredibly interesting field. So yes even from youngish guys you'll be attractive even being a "non-glamorous industry."

Also I believe a large swath of developers just enjoy problem solving regardless of the application as long as solving the problem itself is a challenge. While others like steady routine, and I think both are useful to your ends. Of course there are some that like to be on the cutting edge (though IMHO logistics can very much include that, though I recognize that isn't your needs currently) and those people will choose a different company.

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#444
post #62

IME what works best getting new projects kick started is hiring a very small team of senior freelancers, making one of them lead, and letting them loose. I worked on such a team once and it was really excellent. The advantage of this strategy is if the experiment doesn't work out, terminating freelancers is much easier than permanent (I noted you're based in Europe). Contrary to what other people said, I wouldn't try…

I do this kind of work in Europe as a freelancer since 25 years. I really enjoy it because technology is not an end in itself for me, but a tool to help companies to work better.

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#445

Consider not only freelance developers but a freelance "scrum" type team with a PM or PO. Vet these carefully as a bad PO will sink the project. A good PO will gather requirements, keep the team on track, report back progress etc. Since this is an outsourced solution you must be "waterfall" as in be crystal clear on how the app will work, what is the business logic (the devil in the details) etc. Freelancers will not…

Do not; absolutely DO NOT hire a specialized PO for a project like this.

One of the developers should be senior enough to wear that hat, and do it part time. Optimally, the entire team will do that task part time.

The most effective way to add risk into an inherently risky project is to put somebody on the way between the developer and the software users.

This project has the best possible configuration where both the developers and the users answer to the same boss. If you need somebody to filter their interaction, the management has failed big time.

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#446
I have a part-time gig maintaining in-house software for a medium sized manufacturing company, which I have done since 2019.

1) your timing is auspicious, there are many devs looking for a new gig

2) you can retain them if they are able to do meaningful work, without a lot of bureaucracy, and you pay enough that it's a comfortable living (don't need to match FAANG salaries entirely)

3) the advantage is that they will know your business well enough to make software for your purpose. Therefore, the answer to whether or not they are interested in a "non-glamorous industry like logistics", is to straight up ask them in the interview what they think about that. Some will find it interesting to dig into the details and learn how another industry works, some will not.

4) but if you cannot afford to have at least two devs, consider the issues of what happens if your single dev gets another job or goes on vacation

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#447
post #264

Here is a success story from a unicorn startup. They started a traditional business; there was no IT at that time. The business was good, and they had already made a lot of money. They want to create a digital product for the business. They first hire a local person and freelancers. Then they work together to build the product. The local person acts like a CTO and product lead. Freelancers are developers. Then they w…

Sounds like outsourcing the development to Poland

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#448

I have a part-time gig maintaining in-house software for a medium sized manufacturing company, which I have done since 2019. 1) your timing is auspicious, there are many devs looking for a new gig 2) you can retain them if they are able to do meaningful work, without a lot of bureaucracy, and you pay enough that it's a comfortable living (don't need to match FAANG salaries entirely) 3) the advantage is that they will…

How did you land that part time gig?

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#449
post #340

I would start with a business case - what are the benefits, is it going to generate revenue or reduce costs, when do the benefits start to be realised. Then look at the cost in starting to develop what you need, and how you’re going to get started. Are there existing COTS systems (e.g. SAP, Dynamics, Salesforce) that are extensible but can do 60% of the base functionality out of the box? Can you start by integrating…

SAP does nothing out of the box, except maybe some parts may fall off and you'll find them under the couch later.

Re: Ask HN: Should we bring software dev in-house?

#450
post #391
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cost is not just salary. To begin with, health insurance and other benefits. And they'll need dev environments, they may need additional cloud resources depending on how the project goes, and there will be additional overhead when the team interacts with other departments.

OP is in Europe - no idea in which country but just as an anecdotal example, building a world-class dev team in Estonia is ~100k per senior engineer (total cost, including health insurance etc). Of course there are auxiliary costs in addition to the team itself but not anywhere close to 4.5 mil/year for a 5 person team. And to be honest, I'm not convinced a moderately complex in-house crud app would really require 5…

I agree that the cost seems overblown but having worked on several very small teams I'd be hesitant to start anything new with fewer than four people. It is possible to get things done with a one or two person team, it's just a lot harder because the moment someone gets sick or goes on holiday everything grinds to a halt. If what the team is working on is on the critical path for doing business it effectively becomes impossible for anyone to have a real holiday, if something breaks then they're going to get roped in to fix it regardless.

If you have a four person team you drastically reduce the bus factor. It also means you can have people routinely pairing on things which can be hugely impactful when working on new software in a new domain like this.

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