Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

Part 1:

I moved from Miami to Kyiv, Ukraine three and a half years ago. I see a lot of interesting responses from Western Europe, but OP didn't specify where in Europe so I'll give my EE perspective.

I live in the city center in Kyiv, which is a great city, vastly underrated due to the legacy of the Soviet stereotype.

Big sacrifices, in no particular order:

- Others have mentioned that the houses are smaller in Europe; this is true here as well. But it's not just about the space; apartments here (and the houses I've been in as well) as just not a comfortable. The stairs are steeper, the layout is weird (especially in old apartments like mine which dates from the Stalin era), the corridors are dirty and dark, if there's a clothes washer at all it's in the bathroom and there is no separate dryer. I admit non of this really counts as a "big" sacrifice, but it's something I still notice every day, even after years of being here.

- As I mentioned, I came here to build a company, so I'm not earning a salary on the local economy. The US is by far the best place to earn money in tech, others have already reported that. Ukraine salaries are cheaper than Berlin, but for strong and in-demand talent, not a whole lot cheaper. The absolute top of the market at this time of crazy salary growth is probably USD 7K or 8K/mo; a more realistic salary would be USD 4K to USD 6K/mo. Compared to the US that's shit, but the Ukrainian tax code has a special carve-out for IT, so the income tax on that is only 5%, and the cost of living is pretty low. I think as a foreigner if you could find an IT company that would hire you for a reasonable salary you could set up quite a comfortable life for yourself, although as I said I haven't personally done this.

- I took for granted that in America, foreigners can immigrate and become Americans, not just by law as citizens but in the eyes of other Americans. That emphatically does not happen here. I could live here for 40 years, earn Ukrainian citizenship by serving in the Army, raise Ukrainian children, and when I die, I will die a foreigner. Most Ukrainians I meet are not hostile to foreigners, but they also don't treat me as one of them, and many assume all foreigners are rich and will try to cheat you. I've grown used to this, and it doesn't bother me, but make sure you're prepared for this reality.

- This sounds stupid, but Amazon (and the ability to impulse buy things and get them the next day, in general). The local market has a lot of Western products, but the markup is insane. Ukraine has very unreasonable import taxes on foreign goods, so everything here is much more expensive. Cars could easily end up being 2x the cost of the equivalent in the US. Residents are allowed to import packages worth up to EUR 100 without import duty; after that, it's 20% tax. Amazon does ship some things to Ukraine, but the shipping is unreasonable and almost everything they still will ship to US only, so I use a service (Meest) that provides me with an address in Delaware, and then will re-ship my packages by boat (takes over a month) or by air (takes at least a week and costs a lot more), where I can receive them at the Ukrainian equivalent of FedEx. Obviously this elaborate process and restriction on dollar amount means I rarely order things from abroad. This might be the most first world of problems ever complained about, but I really do miss this.

- Practically no one you will encounter in daily life, outside of tech workers, will speak any English. This was very hard for me because I'm very self-conscious about making mistakes speaking a foreign language. I speak Russian now at an intermediate level (I really should learn Ukrainian, but Russian learning materials are so much more abundant, and I can use Russian in other countries in the region), which has helped immensely. I can't emphasize enough the importance of speaking the local language with at least conversational fluency. It used to be I wouldn't order food delivery because I know they will call me to confirm the order (this is an annoying cultural difference BTW) and I'll struggle to understand them and it'll be a mess and it's better to just eat some crackers. Now I have no fear of communicating, not because my Russian is perfect, but because I've been here long enough and studied enough that I know I'll be able to communicate. If I had not invested multiple hours per day early on in language study, I doubt I'd still be here. It's just too hard, and too isolating.

- The healthcare system here is...not up to Western standards. In summer 2020 had a heart issue, and was really unsure if I needed to evac back to the US or not. I felt like I would die, although my cardiologist in Ukraine said that was very unlikely. Dealing with the healthcare system is really not pleasant for me, thankfully my girlfriend helped with some details. The process is utterly foreign, and bedside manner is not emphasized in Ukrainian medical schools. So if you come here, don't get sick, and if you do get sick...make sure a Ukrainian cares enough about you to help.

- I left all of my friends and family behind. There's no getting around it, that sucks and there's no solution. Ask yourself how badly you want to move. I don't regret my decision but I won't pretend it was easy. I doubted myself many times. It's not easy for me to make new friends even in my home country; it's no easier here. I am friends with the guys I have hired on my team, but I wouldn't say I have any close friends here.

Now I miss it and moving back next month! I like the ‘quality of life’ way better. That’s a phrase that means different things to different people. I don’t have kids, which is a huge factor. If you’ve saved well early in your career in the US, moving to Europe could be a win win.

Yes the tax filings are a pain. Everything works less professionally overall - you have to “chase” people to get work done (a word used a lot in the UK) and the grey weather can get to you, but I’m going to give it another chance.

NHS is ok, but be aware there isn’t a whole lot in term of preventive care. Private health insurance even through an employer will not cover chronic preexisting conditions (diabetes, heart disease, etc.), unlike in the US - something to consider if it matters, though private hospital bills won’t bankrupt you either unlike the US.

Yeah I've lived across Iowa, Indiana, and eastern Pennsylvania for ~30 years. I spent a few years in NYC and I've been in DC for about a year now. Since it seems relevant, I'm also a straight white atheist guy.

I'm actually very happy the midwest works for you; there are a lot of benefits and I weirdly kind of hold out hope for it. But my guess is climate change will be very hard on it, and I don't think--outside of Illinois maybe--there's governmental competence to handle the coming challenges. But hey, what do I know.

I don't dismiss your experience, and I think one of the kind of confounding things about the US is that it is actually very good for most people, and especially good relative to almost anywhere else. I'm sensitive to the optics of criticizing a system that is way above average, and definitely aware that it's an insane privilege to be able to easily pick a country to live in.

But mostly what I'm referring to are surveys of public opinion and statistics. I'm feeling too lazy to dig any up, but google around for surveys of homophobia/racism/sexism/etc. and compare there results of say, Kansas, to a classically "blue" city like NYC. The differences are stark. Obviously racism exists in NYC, but degrees matter and degrees are what we're talking about here. Look at the rates of school shootings in the US vs. school shootings in the UK, Germany, etc. etc. Sure you can 3D print a gun, you can make acid in your kitchen. But degrees matter, and making it harder to hurt people makes it less likely people are hurt. Every study shows this. Look at the rates of maternal and infant mortality in the US vs. EU countries. Look at the rates of educational attainment, the Global Gender Gap index, etc. etc.

I do want to drill down into abortion for a second, because there's a lot of information people just don't know about it. Generally the argument goes, "OK well, if Texas outlaws it it's no big deal, you can just drive to a surrounding state". First of all, that can be a pretty long drive depending on where you live. Second, that presumes a neighboring state also hasn't outlawed abortions, or has a reasonable abortion regime--there are some restrictions that require an examination before getting an abortion, and you can't have both on the same day, so you're making multiple day-long trips. For many, many women that's practically impossible. Abortion is also not always purely elective, it's often the case that women need abortions to stay alive, or they miscarry and an abortion is simply removing the dead fetus.

The current state of abortion policy in the US is really terrifying [0], but the fact that it's happening in a country where a strong majority (60%!) support a right to an abortion honestly terrifies me more.

These differences aren't happening by accident, they're happening because the EU isn't encumbered by a moribund government and a powerful proto-fascist political party. Like, I'm glad it's easy to bike where you live, but I'm tired of Mitch McConnell trying to disenfranchise people of color so the American right can (re)build a white chauvinistic corporatist theocracy.

Which brings us to guns, my favorite least favorite topic. You're never gonna convince me that a populous armed with AR-15s and the odd SAM will be a defense against the US military, who are armed with unimaginably sophisticated weaponry and have the ability to completely strangle our society. You'll never convince me that the people who are armed (largely right-wing) will even be the ones defending us from the government (you can imagine a Trump presidency in 2024 going pretty sideways, and the pro-2A people welcoming a "change in government structure to save our country"). In no way am I reassured by the prospect of an armed resistance against a tyrannical government--that sounds like a complete failure case with global repercussions. It's an absurd position to take. The US has a staggering nuclear arsenal, space weaponry, and still leads the free world. The very idea of it collapsing to the point where it would be comparable to situations like Paris in WW2 or Chechnya is horrifying and probably precipitates a protracted period of darkness for all of humanity.

But you'll also never convince me that a violent military coup is how it'll happen. If there were some power that invaded and conquered the US, rounded up millions of LGBTQ people and people of color into forced labor camps, prisons, and psychiatric facilities where they're subjected to constant violence and sexual abuse, stole all our wealth for themselves, forced their religious beliefs on us, propagandized us through talk radio, cable news and internet news sites, and militarized our police force, we all think that'd be pretty bad. But it's also the modern Republican party so, some amount of frog boiling is happening here.

[0]: https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/issues/abortion

I mean is there still talk of banning people in London from having a steak knife on their person while in public? Take away guns and people will use other tools to carry out violence they might be intending.

Which is the real issue - people, not the tools/weapons. Fixating on tools is easier than those pesky humans, so I get why people tend to do that.

I think it was Heinlein that popularized "an armed society is a polite society" - turns out its more than mere theory or a pithy saying: https://neonnettle.com/features/1909-a-georgia-town-once-req...