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Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

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441–450 of 506 posts

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the legal guidelines for whether or not someone is a contractor (vs an employee) is whether they provide their own tools. It’s not a hard rule. It’s just one of a number of tests. But contractors are generally expected to provide their own tools.

But in that case I’d agree with the OP. I’m not installing what ever you want on my hardware. I probably was more of a “temporary employee” than a contractor. But what’s the difference at that point? I was paid more than the value of entitlements as cash. It suited both parties, and was mutually agreed. In hindsight, having them provide the hardware, and then handing it back at the end of the engagement would be my p…

> I probably was more of a “temporary employee” than a contractor. But what’s the difference at that point?

If you’re a temporary employee, the employer is responsible for payroll taxes, and has additional obligations to you (depending on the state). You’re obligations— both to your employer and to the IRS—are different as well.

I’m addition to unlawfully skirting regulations, misclassifying an employee as a contractor is essentially stealing from the employee by reducing the company’s tax burden and increasing the employee’s.

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#442
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's trivial for software inside to VM to detect that QEMU can get you very far in masking the presence of a VM. If it can work around Nvidia's cash grab of not allowing consumer cards to be used in VMs, it should be able to deal with whatever bullshit spyware.

If you run `dmidecode` inside a Linux VM running (on QEMU), do the returned strings not show extremely obvious VM-only things? When doing so on VMware or KVM, things are extremely obvious. I haven't tried just plain QEMU though. :)

With QEMU you can configure that and make it say whatever you want ( which is how you can lie to an Nvidia card).

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#443
post #371

If you are a freelancer then your contract should allow you to do work for others. In which case, your response to this client has to be "Sorry, but my business laptop potentially has data from other clients on it. I can't let you install this monitoring agent without violating my contractual confidentially agreement with those other clients. I always maintain client confidentiality and will do the same for you. If y…

Keeping their software segregated is sound advice, but as they are your client there are a couple of other ways I'd offer to handle it: 1) Keep all software related to work for their company segregated inside a VM. Then you can install whatever they require without interfering with your main system or potentially exposing data for other clients. 2) If they want a separate physical system, tell them you would be happy…

We provide hardware to contractors all the time. They don't own the hardware so the loaner does not trigger a taxable event for them. When the contract is over, they return the hardware. The hard part about this in the current day and age is getting the units through customs.

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have any evidence for this?? I've just been involved in selecting Drata as a vendor for SOC2 compliance planning for our company. If this is true it's a huge deal and totally against my understanding of their business model. It honestly sounds like bullshit to me! But if you have evidence that they do this, please let us know. Unless their agent is Free Software, the reasonable end-user assumption is that th…

This is just a way of saying that every mid-to-large-sized company in the world is doing malicious things, because all of them depend on closed-source agent software of one kind or another. And you might be right about that! Certainly, the industry has not taken the threat of agent-based management tools seriously enough. But what the hell is your point? This is about as practical an argument as "the only reasonable…

My comment was not about what is reasonable for companies to run. In fact, I implied that it is reasonable for companies to run proprietary agents, because they have contracts and legal remedy through the courts if the products turn out to be malicious spyware.

My judgement is confined to what is reasonable for individuals to be asked to run in their own operating environments. Individuals lack recourse through the courts, barring some watershed law like a US GDPR with a provision for adequate liquidated damages.

I also pointed out a straightforward path if a company still wants their contractors/employees to run unaccountable proprietary crapware on the devices used to do work - purchase dedicated devices for contractors/employees to use for work, rather than expecting to get exclusive software installed on shared equipment. Coupled with an appropriate home network set up, this provides complete compartmentalization, assuming any sensors can be disabled.

(deliberate employee-hostile software, eg employee activity trackers, is out of the scope of this comment)

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#445
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you run all that in a cloud vm, and RDP into it for work?

This is the better option. I used to have a separate laptop just for one client and it was a pain in the ass. What happens when it gets damaged? They could charge you for the repair. Not worth the hassle of keeping track of it, lugging it around everywhere, keeping it charged & updated. Definitely a pain in the ass. Just do a cloud VM that the client owns with VPN access to the client's network. These are common now…

Seconded. We use Amazon Workspaces with access to our VPC for an offshore contracting firm we are working with.

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to ship me a dedicated laptop for your engagement, I would be happy to install whatever you want on it. I wouldn't offer this. You're still going to need to login to Github/email/wherever with your personal password, manage private keys, and stuff like that. Just say no.

It's a widespread practice that companies provide laptops to contractors to compartmentalize the way they interact with the company's IT. But I'm really quite opposed to it. At one point I had 3 sets of machines: Two different 14" laptops from two different clients and my own machines. At some point you simply run out of space on your desk and end up constantly either working on screens that are too small (14" really…

How comfortable would you be if you learned that your cloud provider allowed a contractor in a random overseas country to connect to your production servers from a laptop on which he also read his personal email?

Would you like them to have some controls in place to prevent that?

Would you like that to be enforced consistently and audited?

Would you like them to provide you with a certification that their procedures to ensure that doesn’t happen meet some minimal standard?

Congratulations, you have invented ‘demanding SOC2 compliance from vendors’.

And the upshot of it is that some contractors have to put up with jumping through some hoops.

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#447
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why you tape off cameras and stick a needle in condenser mics on any new laptop.

Don't they use MEMS microphones nowadays? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microelectromechanical_systems ) Either way, solid advice!

Learn a thing every day I guess. Nonetheless, is inconsequential to task at hand if you apply the "Rosemary Kennedy" method to the laptobotomy: activate the mic, jam that needle in the hole and wiggle it around until the girl can no longer sing, no activity is detected on the vu-meters and nothing is played back in the recording.

You have audio-video input sensors on all sort of programable devices nowadays, even some TVs can be turned into two way communication devices. That's a nice 1984ish vibe to ruin your late night matrimonial TV browsing.

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP was about a contractor though. The way I think about somebody who is truly a contractor is that they are their own IT department, and their capabilities in the IT space should be at least on par with whatever the client's IT department enforces for in-house employees. The above two comments however seem to be arguing from the viewpoint "this is just an individual person and any individual person surely needs b…

You can disagree with the expectation of privacy but it’s been held up in court multiple times that personal actions ok a corporate resource are not protected. Ideologies and realties are different. If you care about personal data, don’t put it on the company. The company however has a huge liability with your personal data. I’ve mentioned else where I have dealt with issues of personal data becoming an issue for the…

We're agreed that separation of work and private spheres is good practice.

But I'm not sure what country and what legal concept it is that you are referring to when you say "it's been held up in court multiple times that..." I'm based in Germany and have recently undergone GDPR-related training with a lawyer specializing in privacy law. In the training, the lawyer explained court cases that involved regrettable intermingling of work and private data in a company's IT. The result was that the law then started looking at that company's IT as being more akin to a telecommunication provider, with similar legal provisions coming into effect regarding telecommunication privacy.

Also: Anyone who lets their mind jump straight from "privacy" to "porn" is missing a big part of the picture of what privacy is all about. The way I think about it, it's a basic psychological need. Your psyche can be in a "public mode" where it assumes that any and all information flows emanating from you are out there for everyone to see and do with as they please. The result is that you have to put up huge amounts of self control which is psychologically exhausting. Therefore, the psyche seeks private spaces, where you don't need to control yourself as much because you know that nobody is watching.

The fight for privacy in the digital sphere is about ensuring that, just because our psyches are nowadays constantly linked to digital devices, this doesn't result in our psyches having to operate in "public mode" all the time.

It's about establishing clear delineations of who gets to receive what information flows relating to you and how they can potentially use that information against you.

For example: A company does time tracking through Excel sheets, but they also have IT security logs that keep track of people logging into and out of work machines. One day the company decides to run a project: They put the two data sources side by side and identify employees likely to be cheating on their time sheets. They fire the employees. ...this sets in motion a psychological effect in the remaining employees: They realize that they have a very poor understanding of what information the company's IT is collecting, and they don'T know how that information might one day be used against them. So all they can do is assume the worst. That means putting their psyches in "public mode" all the time, assuming the machine knows and sees everything, and the employer will use that information against employees at whatever time and in whatever manner suits them. The psychological damage done by this is precisely what we need to avoid!

And the GDPR will usually actually prohibit such things: The company's register of data processing activities will tie the security logs to the purpose of providing IT security. And it will tie the Excel timesheets to the purpose of time tracking. If you start using the security logs for time tracking purposes, you are using the data cross-purpose and are in violation of the GDPR and risk a hefty fine. This is a model usecase of what the GDPR is actually good for, and it clearly relates to protecting individuals' reasonable expectations of privacy in relation to their company's IT.

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#449
post #4

You have two options: (1) quit or (2) "renegotiate the relationship", as the saying goes. Specifically, it's perfectly reasonable for you to say "OK -- if you're willing to provide me with a dedicated laptop". They can say no of course, but so can you. Or you can request a rate increase (which they would probably say no to, if they won't provide you with a laptop). Either way, those are you choices. Yes it sucks to a…

No, "quitting" is rarely the right option - you do not need to proactively respond to the situation they created! If you're willing to no longer work there over this (as you should be), then that is a pretty strong BATNA. You soft refuse and give them alternative options that are acceptable to you (perhaps supplying their own equipment to run the spyware, a higher rate so you can procure your own dedicated equipment,…

Let them be the ones to terminate the relationship.

Disagree - in general you never want to be expressly terminated. Layoffs are a different matter, of course. But an explicit "for cause" termination is always a red flag to any future employer.

There's a decent chance that if you just passively stonewall, they will eventually give up.

You really can't stonewall these things and I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they try. If they foist unacceptable conditions on you as a condition for continued employment, then whatever it is -- moving to Dallas, a shitty NDA, taking a piss test -- you need to be an adult and say some version of "Thanks, but no thanks" and move on.

Or stick it out and be prepared to be miserable and feel like a suck-up if you want. But either way, those are the choice, unfortunately.

Re: Ask HN: My client want an agent on my laptop. Is this the new normal?

#450
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, "quitting" is rarely the right option - you do not need to proactively respond to the situation they created! If you're willing to no longer work there over this (as you should be), then that is a pretty strong BATNA. You soft refuse and give them alternative options that are acceptable to you (perhaps supplying their own equipment to run the spyware, a higher rate so you can procure your own dedicated equipment,…

Let them be the ones to terminate the relationship. Disagree - in general you never want to be expressly terminated. Layoffs are a different matter, of course. But an explicit "for cause" termination is always a red flag to any future employer. There's a decent chance that if you just passively stonewall, they will eventually give up. You really can't stonewall these things and I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they…

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