Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#441

Post by mrbonner » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

cattown wrote: post #132

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

I appreciate your candid feedback about the OP's attitude at work. Especially, I like it when you, as an SDM, agree that majority of the people will be "average" and as long as they don't wreck-havoc the team, they should be appreciated, right?

> However! I will say that this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health

I have a hard time believing that in this stage and age, especially in the US this is true. How do you justify working for a big corp big nice pay to support your family vs. getting a salary just to live by working for your life's mission? Do we just forego the opportunity cost from a bigger paycheck, not just for you but your family as well?

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#442

Post by greggman3 » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #254

ConfessionTime wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, “only a little while.” The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The M…

This parable is completely unrelated to the topic at hand unless you add in some catch like

> The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

> I don't catch them. I just go to one of the other fisherman's boats from my company and take a few of their tuna. That way they get up at 5am and work there asses off and all I have to do is carry a couple of their tuna in to earn a living.

Note: I didn't say he stole the tuna. All the tuna needs to be carried in. He just didn't do as much work as the others. He did the minimal work, "carrying in a few tuna", instead of the full work, "spending hours catching tuna and also carrying them all in".

The OP isn't running their own business. If they were sure, they could decide to only work enough to pay the bills and enjoy the extra time. Instead the OP is at a company. If they're not doing the work then others are probably picking up the slack and the OP's possibly effectively riding off their work. I get that's harder to account the larger the company but it becomes very clear on small team or small company.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#443

Post by jjav » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

geekbird wrote: post #100

i_dont_know_ wrote: post #18

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

This. I will backburner a ticket for days, then when what I need to do comes together I will sit down and bang it out in an hour. It's to the point that I will deliberately review a ticket and code segment every day, even if I'm not actively working it, just to have the pieces come together in my mind and crank out the ticket. This method is not very scrum friendly, because in truth I'm actually brain-working all of…

> This method is not very scrum friendly, because in truth I'm actually brain-working all of my tickets at the same time, but I haven't shifted any electrons, just neurons.

This really highlights why I hate agile so much. Intellectual work doesn't lead itself to reporting status on completed tickets every single day.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#444

Post by raldi » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:07 PM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #254

ConfessionTime wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied, “only a little while.” The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The M…

The next week the fisherman got a toothache.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#445

Post by prh8 » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

ConfessionTime wrote: post #242

ineptech wrote: post #168

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

Just want to say that I am the same as pretty much everything you said. Job is to make for a good life.

I will also say, most discussion usually paints the devs not working as much as less productive, whether explicitly or implicitly. But that isn't necessarily true either. I'm the top contributor for this calendar year at my company (public but not F500, about 100 developers) but averaging ~4 hours a day of actual work.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#446

Post by workshy » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #399

workshy wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwaway for this one... It's possible that you've got cause and effect the wrong way round: consider maybe that your self worth is derived mostly from your extracurricular activities because you're failing at work. You put almost no effort in, achieve very little, are almost entirely disengaged, but, since you're a normal human, being a loser doesn't fit your self-image so you look to find meaning elsewhere in area…

> consider maybe that your self worth is derived mostly from your extracurricular activities because you're failing at work. You say that like it's a bad thing. I would much rather my self worth be derived from the things that I choose to do, versus something I have to do in order to survive.

They're not mutually exclusive, as I said in my comment. They are additive, and, especially without a commute, deep involvement in one doesn't preclude the same in the other.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#447

Post by totaldude87 » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

agagrgar wrote: post #429

totaldude87 wrote: post #426

I usually felt guilty whenever i spend a couple of hours doing nothing. Usually those breaks come in because either a) i know i have a lot of time to complete my tasks 2) i don't have much work to do. Then i started going to office after years of WFH and noticed the amount of time we spend on coffee and lunch and still being called productive because of those same two 2 points . So i implemented a plan , when on WFH,…

Did you get any better at chess?

Yeah , 800 to 1000 lol

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#448

Post by rektide » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:11 PM UTC

mikewarot wrote: post #384

rektide wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is SHOCKING beyond words to me what accepted dogma it is that the human resources/devs only work on one thing at a time, they start at the beginning, plan, write, test, & code review the thing, and then move on. It's a huge waste of human potential. Background processing is vital. Getting hit by the various silly hurdles in the path to shipping- having to go from the elation of getting something done to having to…

>It's hard for me to tell exactly where this sprung up from, how it is so deeply deeply rooted. Industrial mass production makes physical objects with incredible efficiency, once things are up and running. Because it's so effective with atoms, people think it can be just as effective with bits, and they're wrong.

a nice contrast showing the difference between Ursala Franklin's prescriptive & control technologies (that orchestrate & organize) and holistic & work technologies (that increase worker power capability & freedom).

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#449

Post by indymike » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

> Remote work during the pandemic has allowed me to finally be honest with myself and stop pretending I am working when I am not.

Every big company I've worked for has people who hide in the cubicle forest.

> Have I just been incredibly lucky and every boss I have had is too incompetent to notice?

Who knows if it is incompetence or luck. Performance is always relative. The truth is, you are probably are contributing more value than others on your team.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#450

Post by brokencode » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

It sounds like you have a soul-crushing job where you don’t care about what you are doing or the people you work with. I’d find a new job or career path, as that sounds miserable.

I personally wish for a 4 day work week that lasts 36 hours, but I could not stand to be that disengaged every single day.

And for what it’s worth, I’ve had developers like that on my team several times, and it doesn’t last forever. Either they get a new manager or new responsibilities, and it becomes obvious. Management eventually pushes them to work harder, and they invariably leave on their own.