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Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GOV.UK design system[1] agrees with you: > "Use single or multiple fields depending on your user’s needs. Not everyone’s name fits the first-name, last-name format. Using multiple name fields mean there’s more risk that a person’s name will not fit the format you’ve chosen and that it is entered incorrectly." and > "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially…

On the other hand, HM Passport Office absolutely loves titles: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/titles-included-i... My personal favourite is if you change your first name to “Sir” and you are not actually a “Knight”, then you get the note “THE REFERENCE TO SIR IS TO THE HOLDER’S NAME AND NOT TO THE HOLDER’S TITLE” printed in your passport. Context: I wanted “Dr.” to be added to my passport.

That seems good though, you want people checking it in an airport or whatever to get it right, believe that's your name, not insist that your name is just middle-last because the first (Sir) is honourific.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#432
In Calibre (the ebook management software) there are two fields: "author name" and "author sort name", both free-form text. The latter serves as the sort key when the books are ordered by author. I have found this solution both elegant and practical.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Indonesian Javanese people only have a single name. It is more rare these days, but certainly not zero, or only old people who don't use computer. I've met people in their 20s with a single name. Also, in (South) Korea, depending upon the person's preference, they may choose to do family name first or last. It's crazy. I don't know why. (Can someone explain it to me?) As a result, most will write their romanized…

> Also, in (South) Korea, depending upon the person's preference, they may choose to do family name first or last. It's crazy. I don't know why. (Can someone explain it to me?) In Korean, the family name comes first, then the given name. (There are no middle names.) It is almost always a single-character surname (Kim, Lee, etc.) and a two-character given name, though there are exceptions, with a small minority of sur…

> with a small minority of surnames being two characters

I was confused for a long time when I saw the name of Namkoong Min, I thought they wrote it reversed for some reason. Now that he's in the news again, I realized Namkoong 남궁 is the family name -- never seen one like this before.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#434
post #348
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Title is the one that always confuses me since titles are basically non-existent here. It seems really like a really important thing in the Anglosphere and I have no idea why. I just always pick "Dr" when I'm forced to pick one. So far it has never made any difference.

(PhD) Dr. is a funny one in the Anglosphere and also at least parts of continental Europe (and possibly elsewhere). It's sort of a big deal in academia and some percentage of other people feel pretty attached to the title. For others, the attitude is more it's just a degree and lots of people have advanced degrees that we don't go around using honorifics for.

> For others, the attitude is more it's just a degree and lots of people have advanced degrees that we don't go around using honorifics for.

Like what? Doesn't that argument work the other way around, that lots of people have equivalent or higher degrees than medicos, but only the latter are called doctors at their place of work?

All I can think is things like EngD, but I'd think those holders are as likely as PhDs to use the 'Doctor' from it, it's really just the term the university happened to use in awarding it.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#435
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Bavaria where I live, the informal convention is also last name first It's probably a Roman thing. Julius Caesar was actually "Caesar, of the gens Julia", so last-name first. In Italy we also used to list last-name first, particularly in official and military communications. This has changed significantly in the last 40 years, particularly in everyday bureaucracy, but it's still used by police and other bodies.

In Poland informally it’s always . Formally, it depends most places are on the same as informal, but particularly military and some other bureaucracies will use . I always thought this is a holdout from the pre-computer days to make it easier to sort alphabetically (last names are a bit better distributed than the popular first names). In France they seem to prefer (yes, all caps) even for less formal things.

I've seen the capitals convention to designate family names in several places, like with people from East Asian countries corresponding in English. The point is to take away ambiguity about which name order is being used and therefore how to address the writer.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#436
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GOV.UK design system[1] agrees with you: > "Use single or multiple fields depending on your user’s needs. Not everyone’s name fits the first-name, last-name format. Using multiple name fields mean there’s more risk that a person’s name will not fit the format you’ve chosen and that it is entered incorrectly." and > "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially…

>> "Avoid asking users for their title. It’s extra work for them and you’re asking them to potentially reveal their gender and marital status, which they may not want to do." I'm always a bit surprised when I see some e.g. tech conferences still insisting on title as a mandatory field (or really asking at all). It's not just the gender and the marital status but some people attach a lot of significance to all manner…

I'm privy to Software for titles.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting however >People have exactly one canonical full name. What is on your passport then?

What's on your passport may not be canonical. In some countries (Ireland and the UK, for instance) your name is, for practical (and generally legal!) purposes, whatever you use day to day; it wouldn't be _that_ uncommon for someone to have name X on their passport but have been going by name Y for years, and in this case name Y would probably be considered their legal name in most contexts.

Just as a really common anglo example, my passport has my middle name, but I will not otherwise use that name unless it's explicitly requested. Even airlines are inconsistent about this, so for most purposes I'm just Firstname Lastname.

At one point I had cards from two different banks, one with my middle name and one without.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#438
post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in Germany, titles are still rather important. I agree that it's silly but if you have a PhD you're very likely to put "Dr." on your doorbell name plate.

not to mention that often the title is Prof. Dr.

Yeah, professor is an actual title here, you can be a professor without being tenured.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#439
post #341

The name order isn't your only issue to worry about. A Japanese system might be expected to have two fields, one for the name as it's written and another for pronounciation. Just in case someone decides that 小鳥遊 as a name is pronounced as たかなし. I remember Amazon.co.jp having two name fields when you registered a new user, and in English they were called "Your name" and "Your name again", because a name pronounciation…

Well there are some kanji names that have multiple pronunciations (with only one being correct for an individual). And some Chinese people in Japan go by the Japanese pronunciation of their hanzi/kanji name.

They way these fields are done in Japan is often difficult if you have a non-Japanese name and give a lot of insight to this discussion. I've encountered many variations of these two sets of fields. Usually the name fields accept kanji, hiragana and katakana, sometimes accept roman letters, but sometimes if the site can be set to english, only then name fields may or must be entered in roman letters. Usually the pronunciation fields must be in katakana, but sometimes they must be hiragana and again sometimes if the site can be set to english, it may or must be entered in roman letters.

Sometimes, like for a credit card application, there is a third set of fields for romanization. And for names, romanization has standard rules but there are exceptions such as when your family has been using a previous romanization so you shouldn't automate it, especially if an exact match to a passport or credit card name is required. Many other languages have different romanization possibilities for names too. There are even cases where bank insists on one romanization and the passport office insists on another leading to airplane tickets issued with the wrong one!

Some (mostly old) systems require so-called full-width roman characters (same width as a Japanese character and monospace) and some systems require so-called half-width katakana. The latter usually doesn't accept small katakana or diacritical marks, making it difficult to read and write non-Japanese names (or company names for that matter). Back in the day to transfer money at a bank you had to successfully write the recipient's name this way but these days all banks can automatically grab the katakana name and you just have to check it (but it's still in hard to read half-width katakana).

A common annoyance is when everything must be in full-width characters except phone number which must not be.

Finally, there is one type of field that really can trip you up: the address field. It usually must be in full-width characters which is fine in principle, but building names are often (officially, on the record) in English. The windows Japanese IME will happily default to "normal" and not full-width characters. This is easy to spot for a building name and figure out your mistake. But if you live on the third floor (denoted by adding "-3F") it's hard to spot an accidental "-3F", "-3F", "-3F" or especially "-3F" (the dash is wrong).

Re: Ask HN: How to handle Asian-style “Family name first” when designing interfaces?

#440
post #348
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Title is the one that always confuses me since titles are basically non-existent here. It seems really like a really important thing in the Anglosphere and I have no idea why. I just always pick "Dr" when I'm forced to pick one. So far it has never made any difference.

(PhD) Dr. is a funny one in the Anglosphere and also at least parts of continental Europe (and possibly elsewhere). It's sort of a big deal in academia and some percentage of other people feel pretty attached to the title. For others, the attitude is more it's just a degree and lots of people have advanced degrees that we don't go around using honorifics for.

> For others, the attitude is more it's just a degree

Good for them. In reality, it's not just a degree, it's the final degree.

It's the degree you start working towards only after you get just a degree.

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