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Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

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431–440 of 642 posts

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#431
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll second this. I don't even drink coffee. I've encountered people who seem absolutely incredulous that I take no stimulants at all. "How do you stay awake?" is something I'm asked. My go-to response now is "I don't. If I'm tired, I get more sleep." Some of these people probably think that I'm lying. There are a lot of people who think that sleeping at work is a bad idea, but I think it's a lot better than guzzling…

As a corollary to the OP, it seems like the people who deliberately don't take stimulants _also_ love talking about themselves and how it's a superior lifestyle. :) Not saying you're wrong, but the sanctimony from both sides can be a little exhausting is all.

Most people I work with don't know that I don't take stimulants. In fact, it only ever comes up when I decline coffee from someone. I rarely ever mention it, and I hope my post did not come across as sanctimonious. Let me know if and how it did, so I can be more clear in the future. I just wanted to state my preference and reasoning.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#432
A tangential question for the journalist @Eilene:

> I'd like to use some of your comments in the book and will not know or need to know your name

How do you verify the stories? I'm sure you don't just trust random postings to Internet forums and print them as truth (I hope?).

Personally, I've been in SV for 20 years, founded several successful startups, sleep 4 hours a night on average, and eat only nuts and berries. Or I live in my parents' basement amid a haze of pot smoke, and spend my days trolling the Internet. Or I'm a 16 year old provocateur writing this when I should be paying attention in trigonometry class, but I'm not out of spite for the ADD meds my parents make me take. Or I work down the hall from you and I've really wanted to ask you this question in person, but I only have the courage when I drink. Or maybe I'm someone else today ... let me think ...

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#433
What I wish people were saying on this thread are:

1. Do their friends in tech partake more/less/same than non-tech friends? Because I know people in tech who've done shrooms etc, but way way less than the ones outside of tech.

2. This would be better viewed quantitatively, seeing the whole gambit of responses here.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#434

Yes. This is something that needs to be discussed. Almost every engineer is using some kind of stim in the morning and sedative in the evening. This can be as benign as caffeine/alcohol, but I've seen this escalate to any one of: caffeine, Provigil, cocaine, (meth)amphetamines on the front end, and alcohol, THC, Xanax and even ketamine on the backend. It's the only way to deal with the abusive hours. We used to joke…

> Bad companies, really bad ones are setup like this: you have to break the rules to get your job done. Rule breaking seems to be incentivized in many industries. Here are someone else's observations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15894805

Absolutely. Thanks for the link I will explore.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#435

The usage patterns I've observed in other techies matches suspiciously closely to my own -- which really tends to support the selection bias that many other people have mentioned: drug users tend to be very much birds-of-a-feather, they cluster among their own kind and tend not to notice the other types unless they're being really unsubtle about it. So with that grain of salt in mind, here's what I've got. The contex…

it seems these are common attitudes: > [heroin's] effects are fundamentally incompatible with the "head space" geeks need to be in 24x7 to be even remotely capable of doing the work they do. > It's difficult for me to imagine downers or opiates being at all compatible with technical work > Meth, crack and heroin are hugely frowned upon, it's a failure to be a user of these it depends. as a heroin addict, I need the h…

Totally fair point -- that was indeed my naivety talking; opiates aren't something I have any experience with outside of a hospital.

And you're absolutely right to point out that all of this is skewed by the fact that different categories of (current- or former) drug user will tend to be more covert about it than others, for a wide variety of reasons.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#436
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suddenly ceasing stimulants does not involve nearly as acute or prolonged a withdrawal as opiates. There's no risk of seizures like there is with benzos. Your dopamine receptors will reset their tolerance much quicker than the 6 months I see cited throughout this thread. I have stopped stimulants many times with no more than a 1 week (maybe 10 day max) period of physical dependence symptoms. When people experienced p…

> I think it is usually due to being forced to confront life conditions that were being avoided. This certainly may be part of it. However, there are long-term changes in the brain that occur with chronic stimulant use/abuse. I'm looking for the correct number, but I believe it takes about 24 months for the brain to revert to its normal state after stimulant cessation.

Source? (not nitpicking, genuinely curious)

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#437
post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll second this. I don't even drink coffee. I've encountered people who seem absolutely incredulous that I take no stimulants at all. "How do you stay awake?" is something I'm asked. My go-to response now is "I don't. If I'm tired, I get more sleep." Some of these people probably think that I'm lying. There are a lot of people who think that sleeping at work is a bad idea, but I think it's a lot better than guzzling…

As a corollary to the OP, it seems like the people who deliberately don't take stimulants _also_ love talking about themselves and how it's a superior lifestyle. :) Not saying you're wrong, but the sanctimony from both sides can be a little exhausting is all.

I think it's just that people who drink some coffee sometimes or get sleep some days better than others, just don't have much to say, because well they don't really have a strong opinion.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#438
I have strong opinions about this, because like most developers, I've tried to see how I can use drugs to augment my life.

As a programmer at a startup, everyone seems to accept marijuana, alcohol, and caffeine as acceptable, though I think it's considered unacceptable to be high at work (but probably nobody would care). Opiates are considered taboo, and rightfully so. Adderall is prevalent and easily available.

For me personally, after an exploratory phase of trying all the drugs, I've figured this much out:

* MDMA, LSD, mushrooms, 2-Cs, etc can be great for expanding your world view and generating new ideas or as therapy, but aren't really helpful in a white-collar worker sense. None of my peers would judge each other based on use these weekend drugs, but IMO they shouldn't really have a routine place in anyone's life. I'm pretty sure this is why people go to burning man, as a sort of drug-induced retreat.

* Dissociatives (ketamine, DXM) are a strange class of drugs. I believe that ketamine or dextromethorphan will ultimately be seen as the most effective treatment for chronic depression. These probably don't have any place for daily use, but could be useful to get out of a depressive state. The research isn't in yet on this though, so tread with care.

* Cocaine has supply chain issues, so I refuse to try it, but it's also very expensive and doesn't seem to be that effective for productivity compared to alternatives.

* Modafinil and armodafinil have gained popularity lately (probably because of grey-market sales), and they're super effective for staying awake, but not very effective for improving productivity.

* Amphetamines (adderall, vyvanse, dexedrine) and phenidates (ritalin, focalin) are super useful, but have to be used with care. I have an adderall prescription which I use a couple times a week to power through the week's work. This is great for me because I work from home and can spend an uninterrupted day or two crushing the work for the week. These drugs are unfortunately prescribed daily for ADHD patients like myself, but you'd have to be insane to take them every day. You'll quickly burn out after about a week and be worse off than you were before you started taking them. People consuming massive amounts of caffeine probably need one of these drugs instead. These drugs are addictive, but not seriously so... stopping will mean a couple days of rest before going back to normal.

* Benzos (xanax, klonopin, etc) are super useful for anxiety, but the same rule applies to be careful. They're only useful a couple times a week before you develop an addiction problem. Xanax is great for getting to sleep and resetting your schedule, and klonopin is great for when you're going to have a super stressful day with things outside of your control and you'd like to temper your emotions a bit. These drugs make you not give a fuck and feel great, which can be a problem for some, but is another tool in the toolbox of the responsible drug user. I have also have a prescription for both klonopin and xanax, but my doctor knows I don't take them daily. Almost anyone drinking alcohol daily probably actually needs a benzo and counseling about responsible use. I don't use alcohol for stress relief, but I will have a few drinks at a party. These drugs are addictive, but very seriously so... stopping suddenly once you've developed an addiction can cause erratic behavior and seizures.

* Tobacco seems generally frowned upon, but vaping is somewhat acceptable. Sometimes I vape low amounts of nicotine to help deal with stress, but I always regret it and end up quitting. It's much easier to quit than cigarettes.

* Marijuana I use daily, usually after work and before bed. My doctor thinks I might have PTSD from various life events, and I have some very disturbing dreams. Marijuana both lets me change my perspective, which helps to end the work day or shift my mood when I'm really upset about something, and it lets me turn off dreaming while I sleep so I can get better rest. If I stop using marijuana, no withdrawal happens, but disturbing dreams do.

* I don't like opiates, so I don't take them and don't know that much about them, other than they seem to cause the most problems for the most people. I would love to understand how people enjoy them though... They make you feel warm and sleepy, but with nausea and constipation. I don't think this is a good trade.

If I wasn't a relatively privileged person as a tech worker, I would likely not be able to go to my doctor and demand adderall, xanax, and klonopin while being open about my marijuana use. It is nice, however, to have a drug toolbox that's completely legal and insurance paid (well, except for the weed).

All together, I would say that drugs (whether prescription, off-label, or illicit) have had a hugely net positive impact on my life, both professional and personal.

Let me know if I can answer any questions for you and good luck with your project. I hope you'll find that education and safe access are better than prohibition.

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#439
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll second this. I don't even drink coffee. I've encountered people who seem absolutely incredulous that I take no stimulants at all. "How do you stay awake?" is something I'm asked. My go-to response now is "I don't. If I'm tired, I get more sleep." Some of these people probably think that I'm lying. There are a lot of people who think that sleeping at work is a bad idea, but I think it's a lot better than guzzling…

Pretty interesting! Can you share what is your favorite spaced repetition software?

I prefer Anki, though I started using Mnemosyne.

https://apps.ankiweb.net/

https://mnemosyne-proj.org/

Both are good. I created most of the cards I use myself, as I only add what is relevant to me.

There's also a lot of value in learning about how human memory and learning works. Some parts are like learning how to program your brain. Your brain works well with certain data structures. I'd recommend this book for those interested:

https://www.amazon.com/Your-Memory-How-Works-Improve/dp/1569...

Re: Ask HN: I'm writing a book about white-collar drug use, including tech sector

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was much younger I was exposed to a variety of different drug users. Everything you said is 100% spot on with anyone that abused drugs. I've come to learn that there a few different kinds of drug users. The first are the users who have not yet had to face the reality of drugs or how drugs affect them personally, even if they are suffering consequences from use. The mental gymnastics at play serve to protect an…

You shouldn't be lumping all "drugs" together. Of course technically every drug has a downside, for some it's not significant. Basically food is just a drug too, except by definition.

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