Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#421

Post by dajt » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 12:22 AM UTC

C4stor wrote: post #289

dajt wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may have a business one day that sells bits for model steam locos. Many people who are likely to be my customers belong to a facebook group, and probably don't use their PCs much except for facebook and e-mail. And if I needed to post a controversial point of view on my model steam loco business page, I've got bigger problems than facebook. I can't stand facebook, but for my purposes it is probably the cheapest, mo…

I think that your point of view is both : - totally acceptable :-) - not really answering the OP question ! The way I understand it, the question could be phrased : "What costs are we willing to pay to reduce the collective social costs of ultradependence on private companies". You clearly states what are the costs you're not willing to pay, but don't really answer the question which is : what costs would you actuall…

There are no costs for IT I'd be willing to pay for. The nature of the business is such that it wouldn't even be worth having a shopping cart type app running.

The web presence of the business would basically be an advertisement, newsletter, and contact page.

There are related businesses that sell lots of small items, eg nuts, bolts, material, that would be a lot more convenient to use with a shopping cart, but mine doesn't need it.

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#422

Post by dajt » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 12:29 AM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #351

dajt wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may have a business one day that sells bits for model steam locos. Many people who are likely to be my customers belong to a facebook group, and probably don't use their PCs much except for facebook and e-mail. And if I needed to post a controversial point of view on my model steam loco business page, I've got bigger problems than facebook. I can't stand facebook, but for my purposes it is probably the cheapest, mo…

I think you could have a connector between your site and Facebook. Basically an app that would synchronize content. You should certainly start on Facebook, see if you have something valuable and then think about transferring to a self hosted solution. At that point you might find it worth it but maybe not. Docker containers make sense because they are portable apps. You can choose where to deploy them, upgrade them,…

My day job is software development, and your second paragraph made me shudder. So imagine what someone who doesn't want anything to do with IT would think!

The majority of the world do not want to know about containers, hosting services, domain names, or anything else that is related to computers.

I'm not even sure that is changing with younger people - they're happy enough to dick around with social media but don't want to get involved in running a web site and all the software on it.

If a business can work with a "no obvious cost" platform like facebook, the owner won't start paying for something "better" in response to non-quantifiable downsides and threats possibly posed by the platform.

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#423

Post by dajt » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 12:36 AM UTC

mnx wrote: post #304

dajt wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may have a business one day that sells bits for model steam locos. Many people who are likely to be my customers belong to a facebook group, and probably don't use their PCs much except for facebook and e-mail. And if I needed to post a controversial point of view on my model steam loco business page, I've got bigger problems than facebook. I can't stand facebook, but for my purposes it is probably the cheapest, mo…

>And if I needed to post a controversial point of view on my model steam loco business page, I've got bigger problems than facebook. Yeah, but what if you post it on your personal wall, and get banned for that? You won't be able to access your page, it doesn't matter you kept it clean.

I only use facebook for the model engineering group(s) and unless they decide discussions about miniature locos are dodgy I should be okay.

I can see there is a potential trap there for the people who decide to mix their personal and professional lives on something like facebook. I just think it is unlikely to get sprung, and comments like "why on earth don't they take complete control of their online presence and register their domain, get their system hosted, set up all their e-mail addresses, etc" could only be written somewhere like HN. The rest of the world would just shake their head slowly.

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#424

Post by matthberg » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 5:33 AM UTC

matonias wrote: post #415

ctrlc-root wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the person you replied to but I can tell you what my perspective is. I haven't implemented all the measures he mentions yet but I'm working towards all of them and more. It is time consuming but it doesn't feel frustrating. It gives me the peace of mind that I still own my life and am not dependent on companies like Google or Amazon to live the life I want to live. I do occasionally feel depressed about the s…

> That most people around me are subsidizing their lives (free storage, free email, 2-day shipping, easy home automation, etc) in exchange for their privacy and independence doesn't really factor into my own decision. This is exactly what I am thinking and doing all the time. I have one problem however, that is, convincing my friends. How do I do this? Any idea?

I also struggle with this stage, yet I think it comes to three steps: 1) Inform them why they should move away from these things (send them blog posts [of which there are plenty], practical examples, personal experience) 2) Tell them that a solution is to move away from these services 3) Provide alternatives (this is the hardest one for me to come up with ideas for, it's a crucial step yet in my opinion the hardest)

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#425

Post by intended » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 6:35 AM UTC

tunesmith wrote: post #391

intended wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it cant. You miss the critical purpose served by more emotional hind brain thinking - its easier to repeat and get predictable responses to. Think of this as much older hackers using new tools to do better at their subject - their subject being the hacking of human brains. --- A simple way to test the effectiveness of your proposal is to see how forums perform. The more complex a topic, the fewer participants and…

Your point about forums assumes that forums encompass the full gamut of how people can communicate. "There is decreasing participation for complex topics in forums, therefore people don't want to engage in complex topics." But that doesn't account for the possibility that the form of forums themselves are the problem. With a new kind of forum, perhaps people would engage more in deeper arguments. At the least, lack o…

There's no new kind of forum. Because there's no new kind of human. Communication only for complex ideas requires time and energy to be expended.

People would rather have cheap and easy consumable info and move on. The drive is to be able to respond faster, not respond better. Unless it's an area where people have a specific need to understand the subject, they will rarely read complex topics.

And people regularly fail that too - take a look at success rates on MOOCs, a small percentage of self driven applicants actually finish the course.

It's a human brain problem, not a tech problem. The problem is people and those who know how to manipulate them.

Remember that any new form of forum which manages to make people learn complex topics could just as easil make them learn falsehoods or propaganda.

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#426

Post by mnx » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 10:18 AM UTC

dajt wrote: post #423

mnx wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And if I needed to post a controversial point of view on my model steam loco business page, I've got bigger problems than facebook. Yeah, but what if you post it on your personal wall, and get banned for that? You won't be able to access your page, it doesn't matter you kept it clean.

I only use facebook for the model engineering group(s) and unless they decide discussions about miniature locos are dodgy I should be okay. I can see there is a potential trap there for the people who decide to mix their personal and professional lives on something like facebook. I just think it is unlikely to get sprung, and comments like "why on earth don't they take complete control of their online presence and re…

Yeah, I agree. But I think mixing personal and professional on Facebook is pretty much by default, and most people do it. Also, the illusion that people could control their own presence comes from the fact that this is how it used to work, back when the internet was a much different place.

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#427

Post by kakarot » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 12:21 PM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #420

kakarot wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understandably so, after all HN is its own little echo chamber. Technophobia is a real problem and we can't just tell people to "get over it" and join the rest of us, who have likely spent our entire lives working with computers for hours a day. And asking someone to rely on their geek friend for deployment, education and support instead of relying on a stable platform like Facebook is just silly. Unless we can provi…

You've enlarged the scope of my comment tenfold, it was that you could ask a friend to help register a domain or move it, that might happen once or twice a decade.

But what about teaching them proper security practices, deployment practices, maintenance, all of those things that go into actually running a website? Even if its just using Wordpress or a static site generator? Registering a domain is the tip of the iceberg in hosting your own content.

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#428

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 12:21 PM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #420

kakarot wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Understandably so, after all HN is its own little echo chamber. Technophobia is a real problem and we can't just tell people to "get over it" and join the rest of us, who have likely spent our entire lives working with computers for hours a day. And asking someone to rely on their geek friend for deployment, education and support instead of relying on a stable platform like Facebook is just silly. Unless we can provi…

You've enlarged the scope of my comment tenfold, it was that you could ask a friend to help register a domain or move it, that might happen once or twice a decade.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#429

Post by kakarot » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 12:43 PM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #418

kakarot wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some suggest it shows a healthy balance of things users like and dislike. That addicting loop of frustration and redemption we often find in the mobile gaming sphere. Not to mention it does this using machine learning techniques to get the timing down juuuust right. Something something something beauty without pain. I think my posts were well beyond the "frustrating but redeemable" category, because I had a purposefu…

> ... I had a purposeful tendency to discuss abrasive subjects in order to elicit strong reactions. That sounds a little like trolling, but I get that you meant it as educational. Maybe a distinction that simple machines don't make. > ... anonymous conversation app that pairs users and groups together with various conversation starters ... And that sounds a little like Usenet, or discussion forums. Except that group…

I rarely started abrasive discussions, but I would jump on the abrasive statements of others pretty quickly to call out bullshit.

A little off topic, but an example: Someone declared that if you ever doubt any woman's claim about being raped or assaulted, you are the worst kind of person, and you're sexist.

Well, I was assaulted once, and then the girl turned around and told all of my friends that I attacked her.

I lost a LOT of friends over this and it had a pretty negative impact on my life. I shared this experience, and next thing I know dozens of women I'd never met are telling me I'm likely to be a rapist when I grow up and I should just kill myself and I was probably lying about not attacking her. I was just a white male who has no experience with abuse and should keep my mouth shut. Nevermind that I was physically abused for 15 years until I left home.

The complete irony of the situation, what with the victim-blaming and being called sexist while being told my opinion as a white male was invalid, was not lost on me. That was the first big sign that Facebook had become a cesspool.

This is exactly the kind of harmful backwards thinking I want to eradicate. However it seems that some rich and powerful have decided it is in their best interest to manufacture this kind of thought and impress it into the masses. I want to find out how technology can create a level playing field.

The app's just a thought experiment but I wonder if group moderation could be done in a way that doesn't produce social bubbles or echo chambers.

I haven't been on talk.masked. Is it not active anymore? I haven't been on Usenet in a while.

Re: Ask HN: What are we doing about Facebook, Google, and the closed internet?

#430

Post by erikpukinskis » Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 10:35 PM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #236

erikpukinskis wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's good on balance, but am also scared about the dangers ahead, and around us. I'm sure when the tractor was invented, some bright minds realized this was going to be the end of small farms, and that some day we'd be eating manufactured food product out of a tube, having long forgotten the art of cultivating a rich breadbasket for your family. They would've been right, of course, we've lost our health and o…

So... Can I assume you are doing something about this? Like are you going to buy a farm and start "cultivating rich breadbaskets"? If answer is anything, but: "Yes" followed by a planned date, then you are just blowing out air. It's easy to say "hurdur we used to be close to earth and things were so much better" from your yoga mat using latest MacBook Pro, but unless you are actually getting up at the crack of dawn t…

Yes. No I won't buy a farm, as distant intentional communities seem to inevitably stagnate in isolation.

My MacBook is a 2011 MacBook Air.

I think you might be pretty interested in how I see the path back. It won't be retreading the path we came in on. And things will be very different when we get there.