Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#401

Post by gwbas1c » Sun, Nov 14, 2021, 10:38 PM UTC

davnicwil wrote: post #90

I work at Stacker (YC S20) [0] -- we're actively building a part of this future and so I've done a lot of thinking about it. My view is that, indeed, the general no-code category represents a paradigm shift in the truest sense. That is, it is not going to replace anything we currently use software engineering for, except at the very edges. This is pretty obvious to anyone who understands software and the complexity i…

Looks like a cool company. I'd apply, but it looks like you're only accepting applications from EU timezones.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#402

Post by Tozen » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 11:23 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #280

eropple wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re thinking higher level than the other side of this conversation thread? Maybe a better way to describe it is that you couldn’t build something like Retool (which is super cool, I like it) without a lot of prior formative design around CRUD and repeatable consistent model handling even across very different data stores and dealing with double-sent commits and the like. No-code approaches need to be presc…

I guess here is where "no-code" as a big-tent term breaks down. Most of the targeted products in the space seem like they can be expressed as "I know how to ___, but I don't want to ___" (f.ex. Retool looks like: write a query, write a UI). Which, yes, trade opinionated design for design time efficiency, which is most of their value. On the other hand, you also have no-code frameworks which are icons and a designer w…

UiPath (and similar) as a "no code" solution is a bit of a joke (on those that don't know any better). Don't get me wrong, I think it's a good application for automating processes or certain types of jobs, but a lot of coding has to go into it. Often you are typing lots of VB.NET or C# code into boxes.

What's often really going on, is often "packaged libraries" that you add to do a task, then lots of typing of sort of "glue code" in boxes to get them to work together. Which can lead to getting bit in the butt with the problems of "no code visual programming", where there is boxes on top of boxes hiding stuff and potential troubleshooting headaches.

Often, the team needs a "real programmer" or close to it, that can handle the heavy lifting, troubleshooting, or custom solutions.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#403

Post by Tozen » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 11:46 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #124

jl6 wrote: post #42

This is an imperfect analogy, but consider for a moment the role Microsoft Excel plays. Excel allows non-coders to do many useful things, and provides a relatively gentle on-ramp to actual code via formulas. If you take that on-ramp and keep going, towards VBA and add-ins and other pieces of Microsoft technology, you might wind up becoming a full-time software developer, leaving Excel behind and using “real” tools. N…

I would go further and say Excel is the ultimate no-code solution. It has been used by more people to solve coding like problems by non-coders than any other no-coding tool.

I kind of disagree, because what I often see is people causing more difficulties for themselves than if they made the jump to Access, SQL, or even building an application.

There is arguably a kind of limit to how far one should take using Excel. Microsoft clearly knows this, so has Access waiting there for those that figure out they should go the next level up. Even then, Access might not be the best answer, as compared to creating an application that addresses specific needs.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#404

Post by Tozen » Wed, Nov 17, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #112

jl6 wrote: post #42

This is an imperfect analogy, but consider for a moment the role Microsoft Excel plays. Excel allows non-coders to do many useful things, and provides a relatively gentle on-ramp to actual code via formulas. If you take that on-ramp and keep going, towards VBA and add-ins and other pieces of Microsoft technology, you might wind up becoming a full-time software developer, leaving Excel behind and using “real” tools. N…

> Excel allows non-coders to do many useful things I heard a great quip at some point: "Why is Excel the most useful IDE?" Answer: "Because it's the one IDE every business allows every user to access." Most of us here have forgotten that many businesses flat out ban access to programming tools for the majority of users. And what is an enterprising user to do, when they realize they're performing the same process 100…

Very true and a good post. Many managers and companies will go bananas if an employee wants to "program" any custom solutions for repetitive processes or for perceived efficiency. Then on the flip side, if the same employee gets "creative" with Excel, they are all for it, and smiling.

Problem is, Excel can be like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, might be the wrong tool, or the less efficient option.

Nothing like watching various companies do absolute insanity and cause severe eye pain with convoluted and mangled up Excel spreadsheets. "Damn, at least go use MS Access or MS Project, if you going down this path."