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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#401
post #60

I have worked at several Fortune 1000 companies and several startups. One of the cons I see in even very small startups is trying to be like Fortune 1000 companies. There is an understandable reason for red tape when working at a F1000 company. But why very small startups overly burden themselves with red tape, convoluted procedure etc. is a mystery to me. Anything getting in the way of shipping on the way to product…

> They want too high of a quality in their first release.

I've actually have seen the opposite. Usually it's a very crappy early product and then when the company grows they get bogged down. (They'll never address testing, tech debt, etc)

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#402

On the compensation point... If you are a smart, quantitative person looking to maximize your income, you should go into investment banking, not software engineering. Partners at an investment bank can make $5M a year. You won't make that as an engineer at Google. Since you're reading this, I'll assume you didn't go into investment banking, but went into engineering, likely because you found it more rewarding. Good j…

"Maximize income" is not helpful without probabilities attached to the outcomes. What percentage of people who start in banking end up as partners making $5m? And what does the income distribution for the rest of the bankers look like?

I suspect the long term payoff distribution for engineers is fatter, meaning if you end up around the 25th to 75th percentile, which you should expect to do, you will earn more as an engineer.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#403
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I review the Joel Test occasionally, even if some of the items are kinda dated. It's amusing how both big companies and startups consistently fail two of them (and the test says if you're at 10/12 or lower there are serious problems). 8. Do programmers have quiet working conditions? 9. Do you use the best tools money can buy? Startups could out-compete larger companies here by providing both shared working space and…

"... programmers are easily bribed by giving them the coolest, latest stuff. This is a far cheaper way to get them to work for you than actually paying competitive salaries!" Past time (20 years ago) programmers yes. Today's programmers? No. The Math is very simple: if a company throws a lot of money, I can buy the latest coolest stuff for the next 10 years. I doubt programmer is that gullible (otherwise they're prob…

You'd be surprised. Many programmers don't negotiate, don't ask for severance or bonuses or better acceleration/vesting terms etc., feel afraid to be rejected after completing interviews, and a lot of people end up working for far lower pay than they could have otherwise gotten. I've known a lot of people who joined start-ups because they were promised various things (freedom to work on X, guarantee of publishing research, attending conferences, etc.) and then 6 months later they feel miserable that they accepted lower pay and none of the promises turned out to be true (sometimes through no intentional fault of the start-up founders, but sometimes through complete bait and switch shenanigans).

The risk that start-ups won't follow through on ambiguous work promises is super high, yet people keep falling for it year after year.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#404
post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

>The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. I can second this. But it's not just the m…

"Unlimited PTO" is a policy ripe for employer exploitation. In practice at my workplace, this means a) Cannot take more than 2 weeks of PTO at a time (even if you want to go unpaid). Automatic manager rejection. b) Cannot be combined with other forms of time off. I had a kid recently and was told that PTO cannot be combined with FMLA. c) When I told them that I wanted to take FMLA, I was told by the Dir. of Engg that I could not take any further PTO for the rest of the year even with the "Unlimited PTO" option and said policy was unrelated to FMLA. He went so far as to state that when he worked at Twitter, there were folks who would alternate working 2 weeks with 2-week PTOs cause of the Twitter's "Unlimited PTO" policy. I found that extremely insulting and de-motivating.

Of course, I am sure a lot of this has to do with management culture /values. Another colleague in a different department is being discouraged from taking FMLA (which is borderline illegal). However, he feels stuck as the company is doing his Green card application and has him by the balls.

All that to say, I took my FMLA and handed in my notice as soon as I returned.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#405
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

Excuse me but the median senior software engineer at Microsoft does not make $400k/yr in TC. Same goes for AMZN. There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). Go checkout Blind if you don't believe. Or ask your friend at MSFT. And like someone else said, first level managers are more like 250-350k range, not 400k, ye…

I didn't say median. I said it is L5-L6 comp, which doesn't make it a median as I assume most engineers will be in L1-L4 band. That said, it is not an outlier either. And won't be surprised is 20-30% of engineering and PM orgs are making that money.

Also, Uber and Airbnb gives RSUs which are not paper money. I am confident that an IPO for both these companies are inevitable.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#406
Speaking about a few cons from an H1B perspective from countries like India.

1. The nature of H1B Visa makes it inherent for people to not take the risk of working at a startup. Part of the problem is the short time between layoffs and finding another job. H1b's may have very little time[1] to search for a job after a layoff. A startup could make it easier for them. Short of a layoffs due to financial reasons, startups could have a decent protocol for making the transition smoother. If the engineer is not a good fit, unless he is terrible, he can work a few months more until he finds another position. A few weeks notice as a standard is very little and keeps good engineers away from startups.

2. Some startups process Green Cards(GC) only 1 year into employment as a part of their "policy". This is partly understandable as GC processing is a bit costly. But the cost is not that much(PS I can vouch that a GC is more important than 10K$ here or there in the long run.

[1]At the moment a one time 90 days grace is provided thanks to a 2017 USCIS rule(which is plenty), but it can be only used once per H1b VISA. i.e. if you use that up once you can't use it again.

[2] http://www.immi-usa.com/eb2-green-card-cost/ [3] http://www.immi-usa.com/immigration-attorney-fees/ [4] https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/salary/results?l=San+Francisc...

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#407

On the compensation point... If you are a smart, quantitative person looking to maximize your income, you should go into investment banking, not software engineering. Partners at an investment bank can make $5M a year. You won't make that as an engineer at Google. Since you're reading this, I'll assume you didn't go into investment banking, but went into engineering, likely because you found it more rewarding. Good j…

"Maximize income" is not helpful without probabilities attached to the outcomes. What percentage of people who start in banking end up as partners making $5m? And what does the income distribution for the rest of the bankers look like? I suspect the long term payoff distribution for engineers is fatter, meaning if you end up around the 25th to 75th percentile, which you should expect to do, you will earn more as an e…

By "Maximize income" I mean Expected Value. The Expected Value of a lifetime of investment banking is certainly higher than that of a software engineer. While not every investment banker ends up making $5M, very few make less than $200k.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#408
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANGS give you RSUs, which are cash equivalent. When I am referring to 400K, I am referring to "total cash in hand" at the end of the year. Generally the comp you get quoted when you get hired is $200K base + $200K in RSUs based on hire date's stock price. So in today's frothy stock market, you would at least earn $400K and possibly more.

that's what I'm saying. I'm clarifying that the value of the RSU is when you got them at the time of the offer. Not at the time you sell it or vest it.

I see. But for most people, when they look at their W-2 they will see the total cash they earned.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#409
As someone who has started and worked as an early employee at several startups in the bay area and has spent a large amount of time interviewing and evaluating offers:

Con 1: Compensation

Equity is not worth it. Early employees bare the same risk as founders, work just as hard, and have an order of magnitude (or two) less upside. The chances are that even a series A funded startup will go bankrupt and the equity is useless. Seed funded startups are even worse in the sense that the risk is way higher for just slightly more equity.

Base compensation is too low. Salaries at usually barely livable in the bay area and leave no room for savings. This has two major problems:

- First, its hard to support mortgages or families. This creates a biased hiring process that favors those already well-off or very young (and likely inexperienced).

- Secondly if the startup fails (the likely scenario), the chances are the employee's savings are non-existent. They'd more likely opt for a cushier job instead of building on their experience at another startup.

SOLUTIONS:

1) Early employees need a higher salary. No living wages. No forcing people on a ramen diet. I'm talking $130-$180k for engineers at the seed stage (in Silicon Valley), PLUS healthcare. Other roles should be proportionately similar based on market rates. This means either seed rounds need to be larger, or bridge rounds become much more common. I think the latter makes more sense; if the startup has some traction, but not enough to go for a series A, then the founders can raise a little more. If the startup doesn't have traction and burned through its seed, it should fizzle out sooner and liberate the team to do other things.

2) WAY more equity for early employees.

* 25% - founding team (first 5-10 employees)

* 25% - all future employees

* 50% - founders

* Investors eat from everyone's shares proportionately.

A win for the founders should be a win for the early team. There should be no scenario where the early team doesn't benefit from an exit but the founders do. The founders succeeded because of the team.

3) No bullshit vesting schedules. At worst, stick with the standard 4 years, 25% a year, 1 year cliff. No 10-10-20-30-30 5-year split nonsense that only favors employers and force people to stick around longer than is healthy. And add refreshers that vest. 10-20% of their annual comp. Salary bumps can also work as a substitute. Incremental rewards are important.

4) Not 100% on this, but common stock for everyone. No class A shares -- win votes by convincing the team you're right and not being a douchebag.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#410
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these engineers at Facebook/Google/etc. working the typical 40 hour work week or more like 60-80?

Depends whether you count the half of their workday that is spent on a bus.

That's optional, for folks who WANT to commute (eg, either want a big house in BFE, or want to live the city life, or whatever). If you want a short commute, it's yours -- if you live in the city, work for one of the many tech companies up there. If you want to work at FB, come be my neighbor and walk to work, I live in a great walkable neighborhood <2mi from FBHQ.
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