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Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

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Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#401

Post by sotojuan »

DanBC wrote: post #394
victorhooi wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first point was that this isn't gender specific. My example was - I don't touch alcohol, I don't like ping pong, or consoles, or any of the things that people hold up as "bro" culture. But nor am I going to hold it against a workplace if they want to offer those things. It's not a negative - it's just a thing. For example - nursing rooms for mothers, or Muslim prayer rooms. I may not use them personally, but I don…

> I don't drink alcohol - but if somebody is drunk, whether they're a guy or a girl - or whether the gender ratio at my workplace is 60:40 or 80:20 is irrelevant. They are drunk. I'm certainly not going to say - "Oh you're a women but you're drunk...well, that's OK then". Although to be honest, if you're drunk and not causing me any harm, meh. You might want to talk to women about their experiences of drunk men.

This person is the perfect example of why women hate it when men try to give them advice.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#402

Post by vonmoltke »

skybrian wrote: post #275
mrout wrote: post #250

I think the key thing for people to realise is that none of what you just said has anything to do with women . Meet your direct manager. Make sure you get along with them. Make sure people give off 'good vibes' i.e. you get along with them. Talk to people, get to know them. This is just basic people skills. The interview is about you evaluating them as much as it is about them evaluating you.

It's generic good advice but some people need it more than others. Large companies may be a problem though. The interview process is generic and you probably won't meet your direct manager; you're just evaluating a somewhat random sample of people. But asking to meet them later (before accepting the offer) might work.

Other than Google or for new grads, what companies do not have the team with the opening do the actual interviewing? In both I have worked for, and every one I have interviewed with except Google, candidates interview with the people they will be working with, including their manager.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#403

Post by hacknat »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #239
treehau5 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. nobody wanted open floor plans, or if they did, they had immediate buyers remorse. Open floor plans became a fad that turned into a way for cheap ass companies to slash costs and brag about it on linkedin about how trendy they were being.

I can prove you wrong. I want and like open floor plans, and have never had buyer's remorse. I'll rule out any cube farm for any future job; I hate the isolation.

Are you an Engineer?

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#404

Post by mcgrath_sh »

exelius wrote: post #392
UnpossibleJim wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a woman, a person of colour or of fluid sexuality or identity, so disregard my comment if it so pleases you, but the older I get the more I seem to want the exact things you are looking for. A little formality seems like it might be a wonderful thing and I won't have to pretend I care about the owner's bitching new Tesla. I work in tech currently and tend to dress in shorts and a Tshirt, which is comfortable…

Formality of environment need not extend to dress code. Remember, dress codes are used against women (by men telling the woman how she should be dressing) far more often than they are men. You can have a formal office without a formal dress code. Yesterday I wore jeans, a t-shirt, chucks and a blazer to work at a formal company. I only wear the blazer because I am physically small and look young, so I feel it enhance…

It does help though. It doesn't need to be overly formal, but putting on nice slacks and a nice shirt with dress shoes helps you go "I am at work. This is different than when I wear my casual clothes. These people are my colleagues and not my friends/family." I'm not saying that it is solely down to the clothes, but that small bit of separation helps.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#405

Post by dracht »

>I check the social media profiles of their prominent engineers and search with keywords like "feminism", "women" and "she". See how they talk about women in the field, whether they follow women on Twitter, whether they posted angry anti-Hillary memes.

By diversity you (and many others) actually mean "people who are followers of/subservient to my ideology and preferably in a different shade than male and pale". The world is not a university campus where you can be sheltered from conflicting opinions. There are all kinds of humans out there who are good and decent, and some of them don't even tweet about feminism, believe it or not. Your zealous reluctance to work with someone because they posted the wrong memes in their spare time is incredibly infantile and unprofessional. You're not against "mono-culture" (you're even actively looking to stay within your bubble), you're against mono-cultures that aren't yours. At least be honest enough to admit that rather than operate under this false pretence of being virtuous.

>if my boss is going to be a white dude, he had better have publicly condemned sexism in a way that feels constructive and genuine to me.

If my boss is going to be a black woman, she had better publicly condemned theft in a way that feels constructive and genuine to me.

This thread is straight out of a dystopian novel, where "white dude" is said in disgust and the wellness of a place is judged by how few straight white males are there. I hope the irony is not lost on you and the other champions of anti-isms in this thread.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#406

Post by mcgrath_sh »

amyjess wrote: post #299
watwut wrote: post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

As an openly trans woman, I've observed that the more traditional and conservative a business is, the more likely they are to provide a pleasant and non-discriminatory work environment, while freewheeling "look how modern we are!" startups are more likely to provide hostile working environments. My current employer is the best company I've ever worked for, and they are a highly conservative B2B telecom in Collin Coun…

I'm just an average woman (edit: that may come off as a funny way to phrase that. What I meant was I don't have the experience of being trans or queer in the work place. Apologies if that came off in a negative way.), but I could not agree more. I worked for a large, centuries old manufacturing comany in their corporate HQ. The work environment turned sour before I left, but it wasn't due to me being a woman. It turned sour for almost everyone. I feel like a lot of these highly established companies have all the checks and procedures in place that even large startups do not. In addition, they have the attitude "We are X. We were here before you and we will be here after you. One individual is not larger than the company." It may get a bit harier for women at the very tops of some of these organizations, but for the rank and file employees it is often a pretty straightforward work experience.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#407

Post by shrimp_emoji »

Baeocystin wrote: post #396
chillacy wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that diversity as a virtue is itself a culture that can exist, or there's some other cultural factor that ties a team together that happens not to care about sexual orientation or race or etc, but my current thinking is that people seek out cliques.

I remember reading some of the current crop of pro-diversity research many years ago. The benefits of an ideologically diverse company were clear, and highly positive. An important caveat, buried in the analysis, is that the researchers noted that at least some of this benefit was due to the fact that people from differing cliques were less concerned about insulting other groups , which resulted in freer speaking, an…

>ideologically diverse

Do you mean being a wrongthinker? I got the sense that the only diversity that mattered was skin color, genital set, and/or gender affiliation.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#408

Post by watwut »

victorhooi wrote: post #390
wpietri wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have generated quite a bit of opinion given that you start out admitting you don't even understand the discussion and are not part of the group being asked for opinions. There are good reasons to be suspicious of companies who push hard on the "we're so fun!" angle. It can be a warning sign of any or all of: chaotic management, chaotic development practices, a work-all-the-time culture, a culture that's not famil…

My first point was that this isn't gender specific. My example was - I don't touch alcohol, I don't like ping pong, or consoles, or any of the things that people hold up as "bro" culture. But nor am I going to hold it against a workplace if they want to offer those things. It's not a negative - it's just a thing. For example - nursing rooms for mothers, or Muslim prayer rooms. I may not use them personally, but I don…

My original point was that when it is formal, personal biases, sympathies and stereotypes matter less. It matter less whether you are comfortable talking to me, because all that is important was said during the meeting. When the workplace is infromal, it is opposite. The amount of people who have those biases will be the same at both workplaces, but one of them is organized in a way that makes them matter less.

It is NOT muchness, not when those biases are generally against you. Jovial workplace would be fine if I worked in something women are assumed to be better at, I am not.

It has nothing to do with what kind of people I do or would socialize in my free time nor who is more fun. It has nothing to do with alcohol being male of female thing.

> But really, it's a matter of self-control. I never once felt forced to engage in that behaviour if I didn't want to.

I did not knew requirements changes on project I worked on, because project lead talked about them on beer with buddies. I found out about those changes during code review. The information project lead got from his buddy was that "it will take longer because she wrote bad code". I never got chance to defend myself. This was not singular occurrence.

So, no, it does matter if you are someone who is less likely to be given benefit of the doubt.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#410

Post by erroneousfunk »

tzs wrote: post #138
geebee wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part about ping pong and beer vs a more formal workplace is really interesting. I've been reading more about this lately. One story that struck me was about a journalist whose newspaper was purchased by a tech company, and the culture changed. She went from having a private office to working in a huge, open office environment. I'm putting this together from memory, but I remember her talking about how strange it…

> [...] and having to take it with her to the bathroom (feeling somewhat self conscious about how her more frequent trips appeared to her younger, generally male coworkers) Get one of these kitchen timers [1]. Set it to about 25 minutes. When it goes off get up from your desk and spend a few minutes walking around the office. Return to your desk, reset the timer, and go to prior step. When you wish to visit the bathr…

I'm not going to start an elaborate timed exercise ritual so co-workers won't notice when I go to the bathroom. That's ridiculous.

On a side note, I used to work in a small software startup where I was the only female. I was on my period at the time and also wanted to fix my hair, so I just brought my purse with me. I crossed paths with one of my co-workers on the way to the bathroom and he asked "Are you leaving?" I told him I was just going to the bathroom. He said "Why are you bringing your purse?"

I just looked him straight in the eyes, smiled, shook my head slightly, and said "Dan, never ask a woman why she's taking her purse to the bathroom." I'm pretty sure he walked away more embarrassed than I was ;)

But yeah, I'd rather do THAT once in a while than keep a freaking timer on my desk.

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