41–50 of 89 posts
Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't matter if you are attracted to them or their gender and it doesn't matter if they are offended. Having a calendar of models in swimsuits is not going to fly. The rule must be something else. But, honestly, if you think you might not understand where the line is, get a cat poster and be done with it.
Looks weird to me that a swimsuit poster on my desk is not ok but deep hypnotizing cleavage and ten meters radius feminine perfume is.
I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…
That is a tough one. It's hard because there's nothing "apples to apples" with a male. If some girl stared at my chest, I really couldn't care less. Now, if a girl made me uncomfortable in some way because of some advance or because she was staring uncomfortable at me in some way, I would let her know.
Is it worth my friend losing her job over this? Or should she just suck it up and deal with it as a cost of admission to the table?
The culture that doesn't fight the little things ultimately builds a foundation for the outrageous things. But how do you stamp out the little things without sounding crazy?
You're absolutely right, it's hard. It's tough. And I don't have any answers. :(
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I mean, there's a difference between looking at someone because they're talking or you're engaging in the meeting with them and staring directly at their boobs. I've been in situations where people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored.
I have a tendency to focus on people who are talking to me to the point that the eye contact makes them uncomfortable. It's a really strange feeling having to remind myself to look away in appropriate intervals. And boobs ... yes I am a human male in his sexual prime and not glancing at boobs is literally impossible. It's like asking me not to breathe. I have recently been informed that human females have a similar p…
I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…
i can relate my one experience of dealing with this where i felt that i had to confront a co-worker for boob staring. it made me feel awkward to sit there and notice him doing it, so the lady involved must have noticed too... i pulled him outside on a false pretense and simply said "stop staring at her tits, its making /me/ feel uncomfortable" and as soon as it was pointed out he was clearly embarrassed and made a concerted effort to not do it.
the lady in question was inappropriately dressed for an office situation - her boobs were literally falling out of her poorly fitted bra and tight shirt with less buttons done up than not. however, it was a client, so extra awkward.
that being said, it seems to be nearly forbidden to comment on how women dress if you are a man, even if they look like some caricature stereotype of a hooker... but, despite that, it is simply true that wearing a low cut top to the office is not suitable attire. sensible women are not offended by this idea, but they also are the ones who tend to wear sweaters to work and do all the buttons up on their blouses etc.
if the situation was reversed i'm not sure what i would do, and that is the worse situation because the lady being ogled is probably going to feel pressure to tolerate the behaviour from a client much more than a co-worker...
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean, there's a difference between looking at someone because they're talking or you're engaging in the meeting with them and staring directly at their boobs. I've been in situations where people are obviously gawping at me and it's incredibly uncomfortable and it's a much, much different experience than when they're idly looking around a conference room because they're bored.
I have a tendency to focus on people who are talking to me to the point that the eye contact makes them uncomfortable. It's a really strange feeling having to remind myself to look away in appropriate intervals. And boobs ... yes I am a human male in his sexual prime and not glancing at boobs is literally impossible. It's like asking me not to breathe. I have recently been informed that human females have a similar p…
Bullshit.
1) Where is the line for legal liability
2) Where is the line for individuals
2) I prefer to consider Karl Popper's reframing of the Golden Rule: "The golden rule is a good standard which is further improved by doing unto others, wherever reasonable, as they want to be done by"
This unfortunately requires some communication about what people would want, and establishing that usually involves some communication which in and of itself may cross the line, woops. You simply can't assume you know what someone wants, or what they are OK with, so the line for individuals will always be variable, and you can only do your best to be conservative and take feedback to heart.
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> you're never going to receive a set of rules that you just have to follow like a checklist, because the same behaviors can be consensual and encouraged between one pair of people, and non-consensual and creepy between another pair of people. That's normal. And awful. That's one reason that this problem looms larger in technical circles: we're already far more likely than the average to be socially awkward or otherw…
Whether they are socially awkward or not, I don't think it's fair to say that technical people are more prone than others to sexual harassment (or rape, for that matter).
I was talking to one of my best friends who also happens to be a coworker the other day, and I said "Hey, if you're ever a victim of sexual harassment, what can I do to make you feel comfortable with coming to me so that I can attempt to help?" She said "Nothing, really. The problem is that most harassment isn't blatant, it is hidden and not obvious. It's like a feeling that you get from someone. I can't tell you how…
The most successful perpetrators of sexual harassment primarily act in ways that are not easily proven or defined. Consciously or unconsciously, they take advantage of natural biases to both prevent their actions from being reported and prevent people from believing reports when they do occur.
Here's something you can say: "If someone makes you uncomfortable and you want to tell someone, you can tell me. I won't ask why; I won't argue; I will listen to you, accept what you're saying, and remember it."
I'm totally unqualified but I think that the legal advice still stands. And it like what this means that any romantic entanglements with subordinates will end with serious liability if there's a situation where anyone objects.
It seems as if recent events also show that it is hard to know what really happened in any particular event and once someone crosses one line (even a line that doesn't seem to immediately offend anyone) in the world of relationships, they can easily be accused and even convicted of crossing every line. That might not be fair but it's life. It's kind of like car accidents - some accidents might be legally and clearly one person's fault but you should drive to have no accidents, not to simply not the one at fault. When improper sexual relations get to the level of legality, both people's lives are damaged and logic dictates that's often going to be unfair to one of them (and logic leaves us in the lurch determining apriori which, despite the ideology and vituperations of all parts of the political spectrum).
But, the modern workplace culture encourages being more then 'professional coworker' to your coworkers outside of the office.
Indeed, at the start-up workplace seems to. And recent events also seems to cast this approach as a train wreck (wrecks) waiting to happen.