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Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

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Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#41

Post by rrrx3 »

CoffeeDregs wrote: post #37
benjamincburns wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't mean that Product Management is worthless... > the real key was the ability to balance product requirements now against their long term affects The problem is that a lot of companies are structured so that this is impossible for their PMs to accomplish. Good employees (PMs or otherwise) will always find away to be effective in spite of the organization. However, if product management is too much under…

>The problem is that a lot of companies are structured so that this >is impossible for their PMs to accomplish. Would love to hear more about this since I'm going to be structuring the engineering, and possibly product, teams for the startup I joined... >get buy-in from both sales and development Totally. People often rant about Sales or Marketing or Engineering, but none exists without the other. I think the combina…

Product Management is its own thing. It doesn't really belong under either of those. Keeping in mind that org charts influence thinking - rightly or wrongly - you'd be putting Product Management in a no-win situation when they're meant to act as intermediaries between engineering and sales.

I'm just joined a startup where Product is its own arm. We sync with Sales and Engineering, but we push products based on smart decisions. It wasn't always that way, from what I hear, and it was a slog to get there, but so far from what I've experienced, it's been well worth it. There's still some work to do, but it's vastly different from orgs I've been in before, where Product fell under something else and had little clout to do what needed to be done.

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#42

Post by Sindrome »

mattdeboard wrote: post #14
seivan wrote: post #12

I am glad they are going away. Don't need idea people.

Product managers aren't idea people. They're not supposed to be, anyway. They interview, the gather data, they build consensus around requirements, then deliver those requirements to development. Development is where the ideas happen. Unfortunately, though, I think I know why you say this. Product management should not be about coming up with (read: dictating) ideas & implementation to product. It happens though and…

I think this is the case in a FB, What's App, or Tinder startup. But if you are in an advanced field like Medical, Law, etc. Then you need Product people with specializations to discuss with development and refine requirements.

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#43

Post by eldavido »

I think it depends a lot on (1) product complexity and (2) who the customers are.

Stripe has the luxury of a product with straightforward requirements (note this says nothing of the technical architecture/complexity of the product, just what it does -- "process credit cards") and they're building for other developers. In a company like this, it seems easier to prioritize based on developers' understanding of the problem.

Contrast that to a place like Zen Payroll (went to breakfast with a friend who works there today). ZP has to deal with complex tax issues, understand and prioritize feature requests from a huge array of non- to semi-technical customers, and deal with major PII/infosec compliance stuff. These kinds of problems really necessitate having someone on the team who will be the go-to expert for their domain, that can act as a "customer surrogate" in discussions of what's important, how something will be used, the relevant laws/regulations/etc.

So to summarize, I think it's less necessary to have a lot of product managers if you're building a simple product for engineers. The minute you get into complex access controls, security roles, legal/compliance issues, multiple classes of customers, or complex multi-tiered pricing setups, you need a PM to make it all hang together.

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#44

Post by olegious »

inthewoods wrote: post #32
gjmulhol wrote: post #30

I sense a lot of hostility toward product managers here, and I don't know why. I could understand why, as a developer, someone would not want a bad product manager, but a good one should make a developer's life easier. Developers are the ones who should be coming up with ideas about HOW to do things. Make something more efficient? Dev. Implement an incredible new technical feature? Dev. Product Managers are the ones…

Great comment - totally agree with the hostility point. The best product managers are like the best point guards in basketball. They see the whole court, deliver the ball right into the hands of the person who can score at the right moment. Unfortunately, most PMs are like characters in Office Space. My theory about why their aren't many PMs out there: it's a shitty job. I was a PM for around 10 years, but I left it…

What do you now?

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#45

Post by gjmulhol »

insidepitch wrote: post #35
gjmulhol wrote: post #30

I sense a lot of hostility toward product managers here, and I don't know why. I could understand why, as a developer, someone would not want a bad product manager, but a good one should make a developer's life easier. Developers are the ones who should be coming up with ideas about HOW to do things. Make something more efficient? Dev. Implement an incredible new technical feature? Dev. Product Managers are the ones…

"Some places that have Product Managers (or Product Somethings (editors, gurus, swamis, whatever)): Apple, Google, Dropbox, Box, Evernote, Square (they exist, I know some who fill these roles), Twitter, Facebook, Microsoft, Spotify, and many others. These people not only exist but also are a central communication hub if they are doing their jobs right. Today's shining stars of PM are Apple (for hardware), Google, and…

Apple has Engineering Program Managers which manage the product build. Sure, vision and design are provided by others, by the EPM (and other titles I'm sure) are communication cruxes.

What products to build is decided by the exec team. What they look like is determined by industrial design. Engineering has little to no say in what actually gets built.

The idea that someone with the title Product Manager is going to be making a final decision on product vision is pretty narrow minded. Google does have Product Managers, but it has many on every product. Just because you are not managing an entire product line does not mean you are not managing product. I think once you get outside Tim Cook and Jony Ive (and maybe a few select others) at Apple, you are too low on the totem pole to be able to make any sort of long term product visioning decision.

Edit: And if you disagree about Apple, fine, I will rescind that example and continue to assert that product managers are very important in most organizations to balance the preferences of many players in trying to make a product a success.

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#46

Post by codeonfire »

gjmulhol wrote: post #30

I sense a lot of hostility toward product managers here, and I don't know why. I could understand why, as a developer, someone would not want a bad product manager, but a good one should make a developer's life easier. Developers are the ones who should be coming up with ideas about HOW to do things. Make something more efficient? Dev. Implement an incredible new technical feature? Dev. Product Managers are the ones…

Really you don't know why? Product management is the embodiment of the idea that man should not be allowed to control what he or she makes. It's the idea that the maker's role should be reduced to mere mechanical typists because we have all these other people that so badly want to be in control and make all the decisions, but dammit they just can't be bothered and are too important to do all the difficult parts like actually making the thing. Not surprisingly, everyone except engineers likes this idea.

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#47

Post by pascalo »

maxsilver wrote: post #39
pascalo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Developers don't work well with customers" Why does it have to be like that? This sort of silo thinking is probably what created the disconnect in the first place. The customer might care about how things get done, if it means the difference between getting 85% of their wish list done or 50%, all depending on one obscure feature. Agile/SCRUM can make the potential complexity of a feature more visible because it's a…

It's not so much that it "has to be like that", in that your merging two different roles, without finishing your thought. Your arguing for good project management, and practicing good project management, while telling yourself + others that it's "no project management." There is no such thing as "no PM". Such a concept can't exist (for the same reason that "no developers" can't exist). There's actual work there, that…

All good points, and I agree with you that project management as a task isn't going away. Of course my original comment was coined towards the agency style workplace (and meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek), that's where I experienced the worst permutations of the role.

I'm not saying that there aren't any good ones somewhere else, but I just haven't really met any.

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#48

Post by mattyfo »

codeonfire wrote: post #46
gjmulhol wrote: post #30

I sense a lot of hostility toward product managers here, and I don't know why. I could understand why, as a developer, someone would not want a bad product manager, but a good one should make a developer's life easier. Developers are the ones who should be coming up with ideas about HOW to do things. Make something more efficient? Dev. Implement an incredible new technical feature? Dev. Product Managers are the ones…

Really you don't know why? Product management is the embodiment of the idea that man should not be allowed to control what he or she makes. It's the idea that the maker's role should be reduced to mere mechanical typists because we have all these other people that so badly want to be in control and make all the decisions, but dammit they just can't be bothered and are too important to do all the difficult parts like…

I think your product managers are doing it all wrong. They should be showing up with "this is the problem we've identified" and asking how the makers can solve it. Product management looses out big when they show up with "this is the solution we demand".

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#49

Post by tamireiss »

"A good product manager could be away for 6 months and no one would notice" (or something like that is often said).

PRODUCT Managers have one primary responsibility - figure out what to do next.

In order to accomplish that, they need to do research, gather feedback, involve stakeholders, identify risks, and understand from development what's actually possible (among other many other things).

I hypothesize that too often people think they "know what the users want" and don't need a PM. In reality, they have an opinion on what to do. Good Product folks know that their individual opinion is often wrong and that only through research, testing, and a little bit of luck can they establish what's next.

The more PMs can fine tune this expertise and emphasize this as their core value to an organization, the more companies of all sizes will begin to make sure their is a PRODUCT manager on their team.

Re: Ask HN: Where did all the Product Managers go?

#50

Post by codeonfire »

mattyfo wrote: post #48
codeonfire wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really you don't know why? Product management is the embodiment of the idea that man should not be allowed to control what he or she makes. It's the idea that the maker's role should be reduced to mere mechanical typists because we have all these other people that so badly want to be in control and make all the decisions, but dammit they just can't be bothered and are too important to do all the difficult parts like…

I think your product managers are doing it all wrong. They should be showing up with "this is the problem we've identified" and asking how the makers can solve it. Product management looses out big when they show up with "this is the solution we demand".

Yes, that would be great. Unfortunately there is no incentive at all for product managers to have that sort of positive and forward thinking attitude or working relationship with engineering. Instead, 99.9% of product managers have every political incentive to take the approach of 'I have the word manager in my job title therefore I am everyone's boss and they must work to meet my demands' Inexperienced engineers won't challenge this and every other person on the team loves the idea that engineers are their underlings, so that becomes the culture and work environment.
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