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Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

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Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#41

For clarity: my dream job is one that has a great culture, interesting work, is making money, and is remote friendly.

I don't see why you would need a github profile, etc., for those things, and if you think that improving your public image as a developer will land you a job with such a company, you may be right, but I think you are looking at the problem the wrong way. Many jobs offer the last two things in your dream job. A few jobs offer one of the first two, often at the expense of the latter. A very few jobs offer all four. How do you expect to tell that a company has all of these attributes? Unless they are a very high-profile company, you have very few data points to go on. Just like you talk yourself up during an interview, the company will talk themselves up, and often misrepresent and overstate what they have to offer.

Case in point, I'm actually in a somewhat similar situation, and am aggressively looking for an out. After returning to school to finish a degree I was hoping to take a different tack in my career. I really wanted to work on scientific applications with something more in mind than just the bottom line. I accepted a position that offered mostly remote work. They already have an established remote workforce, and it appeared to be a true meritocracy, with little management overhead or fixed structure, and lots of very bright talented people working on interesting projects. I had several interviews, including a day long in-person interview. I turned down three other very solid offers to take this job.

Fast forward a few months and the picture they painted could not be further from reality. The people in the office don't have phones, so talking to them directly always involves jumping through hoops and can take a long time to set up. People are often unwilling to talk at all and prefer to hold terse conversations over IM. Lack of management structure translates to lack of communication and support from above. Some things about the job were grossly misrepresented and there was one major outright lie that would have been a deal-breaker from the start if I'd known about it.

But the job looked perfect! I looked like a great fit to them! This is a career, don't count on a quick fix or finding nirvana in a day, or six months. A friend of mine used to say, life is the process of finding the things that don't work. If you put yourself 100% on the line hoping for a big payoff, you are more than likely not going to be happy with the result. Just look at how many startup founders on here have failed over and over before making it, and many never do. I see no reason to over-extend yourself like that for the sake of a salaried position, at least not without some really clear goal at the outset.

Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#42

Can you clarify on your statement "I'm not allowed". Are you barred from moonlighting on OSS or creating software of your own? Or are you not allowed to do these things while at work?

My employer (IBM) allows people to do things in their spare time with the following kinds of exceptions (off the top of my head, sure there are more):-

a) Do not use company time or equipment. Pretty obvious that one.

b) No doing something that competes directly with IBM. This has to be more specific than "working with computers". It means I can still get beer money for helping friends/family fix their computers/servers, but I can't start a small consultancy that aims to take possible business away from IBM. I can start a social sports related side project website because IBM aren't in that space. But if I worked on Websphere Application Server (I don't!) I couldn't contribute to, for example, Apache Tomcat/Geronimo or JBoss AS. I could write my own game Apps and sell them through the App Store. Etc.

c) Contributing to OSS in your spare time needs to be cleared with IBM, just in case. The main reason is that everyone loves to sue IBM and OSS is fertile ground given the various OSS licenses and implications. If I do some work on some OSS package in my spare time it means I'm tainted in that area. If I then do any work on a commercial application in the same area then it opens the door for people to claim that the commercial work I've done has some work that could have been influenced by the OSS code and part of the commercial application is therefore derivative of the OSS work. With some OSS licenses this could mean that the entire commercial application is considered a derivative work and, depending on the license, the source code would need to be released or IBM could not charge for the software, etc.

It's not all doom and gloom. I work with some people that have got clearance to work on OSS software, they just have to make sure they avoid working with anything related to it on the commercial side (to the point of not having access to the source code to provide plausible deniability). You also need to think in advance and not work on anything that we could reasonably be working on in the future.

We are also regularly warned to avoid even looking at any OSS related to the commercial code we work on, for fear of tainting. Same for Googling for answers to technical questions and copy-and-pasting code from SO or elsewhere. You've generally got no idea of the copyright/licensing aspects of any code you see in the results.

IBM does use OSS in some of its commercial applications. Its use is always cleared with the lawyers first though. Certain licenses must be avoided simply because they are incompatible with selling commercial software. Where the license is permissive we always make sure we follow the rules and I've personally contributed many bug fixes in the OSS code back to the community as required (or even if not required!); these have often been found as the result of formal code inspections (which IBM is effectively funding by paying employees to perform it), peer review, static analysis tools, or general SQA testing.

Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#43
The other comments in this thread explain it much better than I could, but I will also throw in my 2 cents and add that you should absolutely not cash out your 401K. You're better off finding a better job. Once you do, you won't have to think about dipping into retirement savings for this.

Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#44
post #6

Absolutely not. You will have to pay taxes on withdrawals and a 10% early withdrawal penalty. Depending on the size of the withdrawal, this will immediately set you back 6-7 years of the 13 you contributed. If you have ~30 years to retire, even a small withdrawal will set you back by 10 years at retirement. Run some basic compound interest calculations if you don't agree. There are many other options: moonlighting, g…

Early withdrawal penalty is 20% now.

Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#45
You are working as a full-time software engineer and you think 6 months of answering StackOverflow questions and working on your GitHub profile are going to be better for your resume than continuing in your job?

Get a new job. If not your dream job (yet), some job that is incrementally better. Apply for jobs. Interview for jobs. That will teach you a lot more than hanging out on SO.

Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#46

For clarity: my dream job is one that has a great culture, interesting work, is making money, and is remote friendly.

We're hiring - http://www.fogcreek.com/Careers/

I think we hit all of your points (although "great culture" is very subjective), and our application process does not hinge on OSS/SO profile/GitHub or anything of the sort.

Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#47
1) I don't have a GitHub (or Bitbucket, or other "profile" on similar repository hosts), or anything else in your list--at least not that I advertise or share with people. Yet I'm in SV earning in the mid $100k. The kinds of companies who put a lot of weight on the things you list are disproportionately likely to be social media sweatshops with a dogmatic view of development (if it's not +RoR+Cloud developed on a Macbook Pro, it's not "development"). If you want to work for them, you need those things; otherwise you don't.

I have a full-time job, as I noted, and a toddler at home. Over the last six months I've found a half-hour here, an hour there to do side-projects. One of which (and my only, to-date) I just released to the Google Play store. There is absolutely no reason you can't do this.

What does "I'm not allowed" mean? I can't think of any employment contract that would restrict you from doing any other development work on your own time. Just pick projects that a "reasonable observer" would not think overlap with your "day job" work.

2) You should not cash out your 401k to live on. It is not that kind of savings account (i.e. an "emergency" fund). However, if you have a solid investment opportunity in something (relatively) stable for the long-term, such as real estate, it may be worth it. I've cashed out my 401k three times, two for the wrong reasons (to fund relocations), and one to purchase a home that I now rent out and derive significantly more income (net of taxes and other payments) from than had that money been in my 401k fund.

Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#48
This question shows a lack of self confidence. Be confident in your skills when networking and interviewing. Seems like you are latching onto one way of getting a more interesting job. It is a reckless plan and totally unnecessary. Finding a job is like finding a mate. There's a small overlap between what you want and what potential partners want. Willingness to fail, repeatedly, is a big help in these situations. Just keep interviewing. If you are good at what you do, someone will give you a chance.

Re: Ask HN: Should I cash out my 401K and try to get my dream job?

#49

1) I don't have a GitHub (or Bitbucket, or other "profile" on similar repository hosts), or anything else in your list--at least not that I advertise or share with people. Yet I'm in SV earning in the mid $100k. The kinds of companies who put a lot of weight on the things you list are disproportionately likely to be social media sweatshops with a dogmatic view of development (if it's not +RoR+Cloud developed on a Mac…

The "not allowed" refers to sharing some of the best code I've written. I find it hard to reproduce that quality of code in a 45 minute code puzzle, like the time I interview for Twitter.
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