Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#41

Post by grecy » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:19 PM UTC

kvee wrote: post #28

grecy wrote: post #18

As Beached says [1], this is all about your attitude, and how you're choosing to live in the world. Remember, you live in the consumption capital of the world. More than ever, you're being bombarded from all sides at all times with ingenious advertising designed for the sole purpose of separating you from your money. Even your friends, family and colleagues are constantly encouraging you to spend more and more, even…

I love your message here, though it's amusing that you recommend buying something as the cure to buying too much. Another interesting data point to support taking some time off is the increased security of students who have taken "gap years" before starting college. In my experience they're almost all much happier, more thoughtful people pursuing what they'd really like to do in life rather than your average college…

> though it's amusing that you recommend buying something as the cure to buying too much.

You mean the book?

I borrowed it from my local library, you should too :)

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#42

Post by grecy » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:19 PM UTC

bargl wrote: post #27

grecy wrote: post #18

As Beached says [1], this is all about your attitude, and how you're choosing to live in the world. Remember, you live in the consumption capital of the world. More than ever, you're being bombarded from all sides at all times with ingenious advertising designed for the sole purpose of separating you from your money. Even your friends, family and colleagues are constantly encouraging you to spend more and more, even…

@grecy, do you follow Mr. Money Mustache? He is all about cutting costs in ways I'd have never thought of. His goal was to retire early, but it could be anything. This requires quite a bit of "badassitude" as he would say. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ I'd also agree that taking some time off is very helpful. I took 1 year off to do some volunteering. It taught me to live a simpler life and respect for the dollar (…

Yes, I love his attitude. I actually was going to quote this one [1] in my reply

[1] http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim...

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#43

Post by apsec112 » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:20 PM UTC

afterburner wrote: post #36

The problem is the rich are getting richer, and the middle class is shrinking. Actual inflation-adjusted pay for most people hasn't risen in 30 years, while for the top of the top it's skyrocketed. Meanwhile, everything is more expensive, and unemployment is high thanks to the apparent political impossibility of introducing stimulus spending in a time of lowered demand and zero interest rate (cutting interest rates i…

"debilitating austerity measures"

http://www.leftfootforward.org/images/2011/05/Government-spe... (United Kingdom)

http://multiplier-effect.org/files/2012/10/Eurozone-Governme... (Continental Europe)

Yup, that's some real bone-cutting austerity right there...

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#44

Post by whyme » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:20 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #40

[deleted] wrote: post #30

[deleted]

He's not asking for pity or for you to explain why he feels pressured; he was asking about whether things are this way for everyone, and why things are this way. Your post completely ignores this and takes the opportunity to condescend to him.

I hadn't thought I was doing that, but thank you for saying it. I'll re-read and I give it some more thought.

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#45

Post by justizin » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:20 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #21

My question is, what is the problem, really Take a look at Matt Yglesias's The Rent Is Too Damn High ( http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0078XGJXO); many "fun" municipalities like Seattle have restricted development to the point that housing is extremely expensive. If you move from Seattle to, say, Houston or Dallas, you'll probably see your effective rent shrink by 35 – 50%. Secondly: see Tyler Cowen's books The Great Stagn…

"If you move from Seattle to, say, Houston or Dallas, you'll probably see your effective rent shrink by 35 – 50%."

Right. If you don't own a car already, you would almost definitely have to, and your job options in the $110k range will put you on an oil rig if you have a master's degree in mechanical engineering, if you can even reach that.

My ex father in law made about $110k at 60 working as a geological consultant for oil companies.

Basically: job opportunities are not the same.

Disclaimer: I am a Texas native. I speak with a lot of knowledge about many municipalities where most of the people I have known in my entire life have lived. Even the rich ones are poor.

Your argument that medical and dental costs would be lower if we didn't restrict entry based on licensing is alarming at the very least. Had I read that first I probably wouldn't have responded, but I've already typed, so, bleh.

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#46

Post by kevingadd » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:21 PM UTC

greggman wrote: post #15

Random ramble to follow I know how you feel but at the same time my sister and brother in law make 2/3rd what you make, own a house, a timeshare, raises a kid, home schools, volunteers, her and my nephew are docents at the museum of the pacific, she teaches MS office and other home maker type computer classes (as in how to make a newsletter on your computer), She's in several clubs (the moms club, a bowling club, a b…

'Move somewhere else' is totally missing the point.

If everyone moves to those particular low-rent places, that increases the demand there, and rents will go up until housing supply increases to meet demand (or, like SF, it never increases and prices just keep going up). This is ignoring the problem of finding work in low-rent areas (though telecommuting at least makes that less difficult.)

To me, 'the problem is where you live' is utterly condescending. Would it be reasonable to tell a minimum wage worker, who works 80+ hours a week, that his problem is where he lives and he should just move? How is that person supposed to afford to move when they can barely pay rent every month? Do you really think THAT is the problem, that some people happen to live/work in a certain location, and it would be better if they just moved to where all the other low-income families live?

For a concrete example: I used to work in the Seattle area for a few years. I 'solved' the rent costs problem by living way to the east, in the Issaquah mountains.

Unfortunately this meant a 30-60 minute car commute each way, along with a big increase in car maintenance/fuel expenses. And because I was in the mountains, every winter the occasional ice storm would knock out power/heat for 1-2 weeks, or the mountain roads would be so iced over that I couldn't get to work. Days I'm not working are days I'm not getting paid; if I'm lucky I don't get fired.

Yeah, solves everything, doesn't it?

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#47

Post by grecy » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:22 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #29

grecy wrote: post #18

As Beached says [1], this is all about your attitude, and how you're choosing to live in the world. Remember, you live in the consumption capital of the world. More than ever, you're being bombarded from all sides at all times with ingenious advertising designed for the sole purpose of separating you from your money. Even your friends, family and colleagues are constantly encouraging you to spend more and more, even…

OP said he's not looking for advice and thinks his situation isn't utterly terrible. His description sounds fairly frugal. Are you suggesting that he stop spending a single cent on discretionary things and just live on rice and beans? Saying his problem is living in Seattle misses the point. Many people can't afford to move someplace cheaper even if they wanted to, which is a real problem - he can afford to move, pro…

> Are you suggesting that he stop spending a single cent on discretionary things and just live on rice and beans?

Of course not, don't be ridiculous. Stop being so black-and-white (as my friends always say to Engineer me)

I'm suggesting he take a close look at how much he's spending on what, and if those things are actually making him happy. He needs Cut out or reduce spending on things that are not actually improving his happiness, and he'll have a lot more money than he thought.

At no point am I saying spend so little money you're in misery.

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#48

Post by maxerickson » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:23 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #2

1) Peak Oil 2) Our so called "health care" system is extremely fubarred. There's probably more, but those strike me as the big two. Edit: To elaborate a bit on point 1, Peak Oil is not the end of oil. It is the end of cheap oil. The current U.S. economy and (expected) lifestyle was developed in the era of cheap oil. That era is ending, which is likely part of what is fueling the depression. Our current infrastructure…

Energy spending as percentage of income has gone down.

Also, the inflation adjusted price of gasoline hasn't really changed in a brutal manner:

http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html

It's twice as high as the 'typical' trend, but vehicles make better enough mileage to eat most of that.

Edit: and if you drill into it, the shipping cost of the food at the grocery store is probably less than the gas cost of driving to the store. So shipping hits prices, but it hits them when a $0.05 shipping cost for a package of whatever goes to $0.10.

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#49

Post by kevingadd » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:24 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #47

kevingadd wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP said he's not looking for advice and thinks his situation isn't utterly terrible. His description sounds fairly frugal. Are you suggesting that he stop spending a single cent on discretionary things and just live on rice and beans? Saying his problem is living in Seattle misses the point. Many people can't afford to move someplace cheaper even if they wanted to, which is a real problem - he can afford to move, pro…

> Are you suggesting that he stop spending a single cent on discretionary things and just live on rice and beans? Of course not, don't be ridiculous. Stop being so black-and-white (as my friends always say to Engineer me) I'm suggesting he take a close look at how much he's spending on what , and if those things are actually making him happy. He needs Cut out or reduce spending on things that are not actually improvi…

He never said he's spending more than he's making, or that he's failing to save money. He asked about why things aren't better than they are, and whether things are that way for everyone else.

Telling him to cut costs is absolutely absurd. He didn't ask for advice and he didn't say his costs are extreme.

Re: Ask HN: What is really wrong with the US economy, really?

#50

Post by jseliger » Thu, Feb 27, 2014, 11:24 PM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #38

mikeash wrote: post #23

Where is all your money going? Living in a studio apartment making $110k, you should be able to save thousands of dollars a month. Sounds like a budgeting problem.

Seattle, mid-to-late thirties = near-constantly increasing rents and increasing health expenses. If he's actually in proper Seattle and not the surrounding area, the nearest affordable housing might be dozens of miles away from where he works, increasing his transit costs considerably. Health insurance keeps getting more expensive, and if his plan isn't great he might be shelling out thousands of dollars a year to hi…

If he's actually in proper Seattle and not the surrounding area, the nearest affordable housing might be dozens of miles away from where he works, increasing his transit costs considerably.

As I wrote elsewhere in this thread, Matt Yglesias's book The Rent Is Too Damn High is good on this subject; increasing rent is not some law of nature but a result of development restrictions in many metropolitan areas, which got started in earnest in the '70s and the results of which are getting worse every year with population increases and rising returns to knowledge creation (see Steven Berlin Johnson's Where Good Ideas Come From and Edward Glaeser's The Triumph of the City for more on both).