Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

news.ycombinator.com

41–50 of 143 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#41
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard they changed it to 5Rs. Refuse, reduce, reuse, recyle, rot.

How confusing. There's no appreciable difference between "refuse" and "reduce". "Rot" is only applicable to organic waste, which is rarely considered part of "recycling" since the other Rs don't really apply. Seems like change for change's sake.

I read it as refuse categorically and rot regardless of type in a big sweep from best to worst

refuse to use any, reduce your usage, reuse yourself, recycle them into new products, or else they'll just rot

I like it.

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#42

Repairability would help as well. Many times the only viable option to fix something is to swap a board, or replace the entire item, instead of replacing the one failed component that caused the board to fail, or reflowing the board etc.. Many components also do not offer batteries that can be replaced, such as the magic mouse, so you end up needing to replace the entire item. It's interesting how as certain things a…

Seeing LED bulb reliability rapidly degrade as the technology matured was like seeing the Phoebus Cartel[1] play out in real time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

There was a cartel, but this is one of those "more complicated than it appears" situations. In incandescent bulbs, there is a real tradeoff between durability of the bulb, efficiency (lumens/watt), and brightness/quality of the light, for physics reasons you _can't_ improve one without degrading the other.

Since "quality of light" is a very difficult thing to market, there was an incentive to push "lifetime of the bulb" in marketing and just make the light quality increasingly worse. The cartel attempted to halt that by making everyone agree on a lifetime/quality to hit and not participate in a race to the bottom (and yes, there was also the obvious benefit to the cartel members of increased sales and profits, which they explicitly talked about in internal documents).

I want to be very clear that I'm anti cartels and I'm not trying to say "so this was all hunky dory", just that this was not (and these things very rarely are) a simple case of "they made the product objectively worse for the sole sake of more money". Instead, they chose a different point on the pareto-frontier of brightness/efficiency/lifespan that also had the benefit of making them more money.

But yes, LED bulbs are currently mostly garbage and have terrible heat/power management electronics which means that in practice you almost never get anywhere close to the theoretical life span increases (because the electronics die from overheating far before the actual LEDs themselves would go out), and finding out information on how well a given bulb brand does on heat/power management is essentially impossible.

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How confusing. There's no appreciable difference between "refuse" and "reduce". "Rot" is only applicable to organic waste, which is rarely considered part of "recycling" since the other Rs don't really apply. Seems like change for change's sake.

Rot is about using bio-degradable options where there is one if all fails, just leave an option for nature to do it for you

You have to be careful with that phrase through.

> using bio-degradable options where there is one

A lot of "biodegradable" will use a literal interpretation, in that it it degrades in nature. 500 years you say? But it still degrades...

Home compostable is really the only one that makes sense. Even industrial composting requires a high heat environment as the catalyst, so if something contaminates the batch and goes into general refuse then it will never break down.

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#44

Ease of recycling is not prioritized during design or manufacturing because there is no monetary incentive (for the manufacturer) to do so it most cases. It would eat into profits. Simple as that. Unless a component is expensive to manufactory and recycling/reuse could save the manufacturer money it won't happen. The only real solution are laws requiring it.

It should be regulated to make devices repairable and upgradeable.

End soldering of components to motherboard. Make service manuals publicly available. Components sold and available.

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rot is about using bio-degradable options where there is one if all fails, just leave an option for nature to do it for you

Bio degradable packaging is not really suitable for composting yourself. Most of it takes a really long time to break down naturally or requires high composting temperatures that can be hard to achieve in a home compost pile. This is true even for basic stuff like cardboard and paper. You also need a lot of "green"[1] (high nitrogen) composting material to balance out cellulose from packaging. The net result is that…

They also sometimes coat your "compostable" bowls/plates/boxes in PFAS: https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/pfas-compostable-food-packag...

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#46

Repairability would help as well. Many times the only viable option to fix something is to swap a board, or replace the entire item, instead of replacing the one failed component that caused the board to fail, or reflowing the board etc.. Many components also do not offer batteries that can be replaced, such as the magic mouse, so you end up needing to replace the entire item. It's interesting how as certain things a…

Changing the PCB for a known-good one: $10 + maybe half an hour of low-skill work.

Changing the failing component: maybe a few minutes, probably a few hours of an electronics engineer that's familiar with the design (plus his expensive tools). He's probably bad at soldering, so you'll need someone else to do that. Then you need to revalidate the board.

It almost never make economical sense to try to repair the board.

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing LED bulb reliability rapidly degrade as the technology matured was like seeing the Phoebus Cartel[1] play out in real time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

TechnologyConnections debunked the Phoebus Cartel a while ago. tl;dw incandescent bulbs can be made more efficient and brighter by running them hotter, but this reduces the lifetime. The obvious Nash Equilibrium involves increasingly hot/bright/efficient bulbs and as much lying about lifetime as a typical consumer would accept, which is a lot. The idea behind the Phoebus Cartel was to force honesty on the dimension w…

> TechnologyConnections debunked the Phoebus Cartel a while ago.

A link would be good, to mirror the one in the GP.

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TechnologyConnections debunked the Phoebus Cartel a while ago. tl;dw incandescent bulbs can be made more efficient and brighter by running them hotter, but this reduces the lifetime. The obvious Nash Equilibrium involves increasingly hot/bright/efficient bulbs and as much lying about lifetime as a typical consumer would accept, which is a lot. The idea behind the Phoebus Cartel was to force honesty on the dimension w…

> TechnologyConnections debunked the Phoebus Cartel a while ago. A link would be good, to mirror the one in the GP.

https://youtu.be/zb7Bs98KmnY

Re: Ask HN: Why are electronics still so unrecyclable?

#50

Repairability would help as well. Many times the only viable option to fix something is to swap a board, or replace the entire item, instead of replacing the one failed component that caused the board to fail, or reflowing the board etc.. Many components also do not offer batteries that can be replaced, such as the magic mouse, so you end up needing to replace the entire item. It's interesting how as certain things a…

Seeing LED bulb reliability rapidly degrade as the technology matured was like seeing the Phoebus Cartel[1] play out in real time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

I wish we had a Phoebus Cartel to enforce an expected 50k-hour lifetime.
Post reply on HN