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Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

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Re: Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

#41

Post by okanat »

1718627440 wrote: post #40
okanat wrote: post #26

AOSP is still the better OS. It is fully open source. It has a much better protection model. It is production ready and optimized. It has a working build system. It supports reliable updates. I find the idea of Linux phones pointless. Instead of trying to create an app ecosystem that will never compete against proprietary-ecosystem optimized and well-isolated one, we can leverage it. I wouldn't want an OS where the b…

I think what people would like is, if they were able to just run the same programs seamlessly on the phone. That's why porting standard (GNU/) Linux distros to mobile seams worthwhile.

Those programs and GNU userland are severely under-secured for a general purpose phone that has multiple privacy sensitive sensors. AOSP has better equivalents in all of performace, security and usability. It is Apache licensed.

As I mentioned if the core driver libraries for the userland are reverse engineered (like Freedreno driver in Mesa instead of closed-source Qualcomm stuff) and the kernel drivers are ported to mainline you'll have a better mobile OS than any GNU system can achieve in the same time frame.

If you still want your GNU environment, there are already ones that implement it like Termux.

Re: Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

#42

Post by okanat »

katcher wrote: post #29
okanat wrote: post #26

AOSP is still the better OS. It is fully open source. It has a much better protection model. It is production ready and optimized. It has a working build system. It supports reliable updates. I find the idea of Linux phones pointless. Instead of trying to create an app ecosystem that will never compete against proprietary-ecosystem optimized and well-isolated one, we can leverage it. I wouldn't want an OS where the b…

The Linux kernel runs AOSP. Linux has nothing to do with the design decisions that you mentioned.

Do you behave internationally obtuse or do not really understand that "Linux" is often used for GNU/Linux systems and this is what meant by "Linux phone".

What makes AOSP a better and more meaningful target for a truly open source system is being also open source and having a much better userland implementation that is supported by specific kernel patches that isolate client programs from direct hardware access and from each other. Moreover it has better libraries for creating mobile apps. It has a better and established ecosystem full of experts, some of which already implement FOSS apps.

No GNU system has anything close and getting close is a huge engineering effort that you don't need to do.

What AOSP does is actually workaround or extend Linux kernel with a system layer that makes the runtime for apps look more like a microkernel. It is a much secure design for carrying a general purpose computer with GPS, Camera and Bluetooth on.

So why not just improve Apache-licensed AOSP? Port the closed drivers to open source ones and everyone can utilize all of AOSP's benefits, without being controlled by Google or phone manufacturers too (as long as you can modify the software). FOSS friendly phone vendors can always help with porting efforts and remove blockers.

Re: Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

#43

Post by bruce511 »

cy6erlion wrote: post #37
wqaatwt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you move past the initial hurdle of the at least several first iterations of this device being inferior to the competition in every single way, though? And even if you solve the software issue, a “modular” phone like that will be bulky, heavy and have permanently outdated hw without really offering anything in return for that for >95% of its potential user base. > to force people to upgrade. So if they had to…

> How do you move past the initial hurdle of the at least several first iterations of this device being inferior to the competition in every single way, though? I think it will initially be a phone for hackers, and they will develop the ecosystem. It will also be competitive in that different manufacturers will try to develop the best components for the market.

The problem though is that there is no market. No one wants this thing, no one will buy this thing, hence no manufacturers will care to develop or sell any of the modules.

Sure there's maybe a few thousand hackers, but the phone market is measured in hundreds of millions, not thousands.

The phone itself will be inferior in hardware, inferior in software, inferior in services, inferior in support, and so on.

There us no market.

Re: Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

#44

Post by SilverbeardUnix »

ohman876 wrote: post #38
SilverbeardUnix wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean that is what it is. Is there some rule that you can't call it that? Or is it just fascist don't like being called fascist and might go after people who call them fascist? Which is very fascist thing to do by the way.

I am not american and for various reasons I am not fan of current White House occupant. Having said this, I find it weird people calling some govt facist (and by extension socialist), my observation is all of them are- reading Gramchi's facist manifesto, he says (from memory so not word to word): everything in state, nothing outside of state, nothing against the state. To my knowledge whole world is now ran by this p…

When people say fascism are speaking more of an authoritarian nation where corrupt officials use the state to suppress opposition. Modern day Hungary is a good example

Re: Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

#46

Post by mcflubbins »

RandomBacon wrote: post #24
mcflubbins wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Librem 5 looked promising but last I looked into it, the company seemed kinda sus: https://youtu.be/wKegmu0V75s?si=dyM-FP6JBP_6emm9

Librem-5-sitting-in-my-closet owner here. I haven't watched that video, but I've seen the comments from unhappy people over the years. I don't know if we'll ever get the full story, but I imagine it was either that or go insolvent. I'm guessing they tied up all the preorder money, and the delays put them between a rock and a hard place. They handled it poorly, but I think they're on top of everything now.

As far as Linux phones go there's not many options left and so they're still on the table. If they'd have just came out and said "Sorry, we tied up all the preorder money, and the delays put us between a rock and a hard place." I'd have more respect for it but they responded to Louis Rossman's video in the weirdest way I could imagine and that _really_ turned me off from buying a device from them.

Re: Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

#47

Post by 1718627440 »

okanat wrote: post #41
1718627440 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what people would like is, if they were able to just run the same programs seamlessly on the phone. That's why porting standard (GNU/) Linux distros to mobile seams worthwhile.

Those programs and GNU userland are severely under-secured for a general purpose phone that has multiple privacy sensitive sensors. AOSP has better equivalents in all of performace, security and usability. It is Apache licensed. As I mentioned if the core driver libraries for the userland are reverse engineered (like Freedreno driver in Mesa instead of closed-source Qualcomm stuff) and the kernel drivers are ported t…

These phones seem to have hardware isolation for the privacy sensitive sensors, so this matters less. I the user already use all the GUN programs daily. It would be nice to be able to use them on the phone. Having these in some isolation like Termux, isn't that useful, as I want to use the programs to control my phone. Not sure if ssh -X works on Termux.

Re: Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

#48

Post by okanat »

1718627440 wrote: post #47
okanat wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those programs and GNU userland are severely under-secured for a general purpose phone that has multiple privacy sensitive sensors. AOSP has better equivalents in all of performace, security and usability. It is Apache licensed. As I mentioned if the core driver libraries for the userland are reverse engineered (like Freedreno driver in Mesa instead of closed-source Qualcomm stuff) and the kernel drivers are ported t…

These phones seem to have hardware isolation for the privacy sensitive sensors, so this matters less. I the user already use all the GUN programs daily. It would be nice to be able to use them on the phone. Having these in some isolation like Termux, isn't that useful, as I want to use the programs to control my phone. Not sure if ssh -X works on Termux.

Having granular access != no control. On the contrary, I want more control over the apps. There is no benefit to me if my banking app or any other app can also have access to GPS, while I am navigating with a map app. AOSP is much much better in this aspect. Normal desktops are nowhere near. GNU userspace also simply has very litte preparation for this. Creating granular SELinux rules, and then separating each hardware into its own system agent and then isolating them further with various containerization is no small task. GNU userland is still struggling with styling Flatpaks and keeping them performing well and small. Android's frameworks libraries provide a consistent UI with little overhead.

I don't know why you need ssh with Xorg on your phone though? There are ways like scrcpy to control your phone remotely. Apps like KDE Connect on Android already give quite a bit remote control opportunities too. There are open source remoting apps that fit the Android user interface better like RustDesk. If you still want an Xorg running, there is nothing stopping you from encapsulating it in an Android app too.

Re: Ask HN: What is the actual state of Linux phones?

#50

Post by 1718627440 »

okanat wrote: post #48
1718627440 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These phones seem to have hardware isolation for the privacy sensitive sensors, so this matters less. I the user already use all the GUN programs daily. It would be nice to be able to use them on the phone. Having these in some isolation like Termux, isn't that useful, as I want to use the programs to control my phone. Not sure if ssh -X works on Termux.

Having granular access != no control. On the contrary, I want more control over the apps. There is no benefit to me if my banking app or any other app can also have access to GPS, while I am navigating with a map app. AOSP is much much better in this aspect. Normal desktops are nowhere near. GNU userspace also simply has very litte preparation for this. Creating granular SELinux rules, and then separating each hardwa…

Yes for most domains encapsulation is fine. It is not fine, if the domain is the device itself. I want to apt update the phone, I want to switch to another kernel on boot, I want to update the firewall from the shell, I want to sync config by rsyncing parts of my home directory. All of these won't work by running an App on top of Google Android, because I want to change the layer below.

> ssh with Xorg

For example to run gufw on the Phone, but access it on my computer? Sure I could also learn to do it in the shell, but it is so damn convenient. Sometimes it's also nice to run an editor directly on the device itself and not run the editor locally on an ssh-mount.

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