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Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

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Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#41
I believe that the only way to find the answer is to get a group of volunteers and try to teach them calculus without teaching them to differentiate and integrate by hand. It is futile to ask people who was taught the other way, they absolutely predictable will say that it is important to learn calculus the way they were taught.

People do not know how education works. People just do to younger generations what was done to them. They can try small variations, and some variations stick. It is like a local search for the maximum. I believe that there is something ingrained deeply into a human mind, that makes human such native educators who can reproduce their skills in new generations. For example, parents tend to reproduce their own parents while parenting. It is a big problem for those, who is trying to become better parents, because they need to carefully monitor themselves to not slip into parenting approaches they are trying to eliminate.

So, no one knows how education works, now one knows what is important, why it is important, and is it possible to replace it with something else. But people tend to have pretty hard opinions on the lines of "the truest way to educate is how I was educated".

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#42

Imho, the better question is should calculus be taught without physics? None of it clicked for me, I stumbled to make any meaning out of any of the hand wavy explanations my poor teachers gave me… until I took my first calculus based physics class and a hundred light bulbs went on as to why any of this stuff needed to exist, but more importantly why.

Interesting, I have had the complete opposite experience. I could never relate to the physics interpretation tag onto differential calculus. Only when I was introduce to the proper foundation of measure theory and topology that I really "got" multi variate calculus

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#43
post #2

Pedagogy has at least two aspects. The rote component, which people usually deprecate, and the inductive/reasoned component, where you learn "how it is" not "what to do" The thing is, the rote component is (in my personal experience) much more important than people give credit to. You need to learn some axiom applied rules to be able to use "mental muscle memory" to perform things, and then once you can operate as a…

You can develop muscle memory without rote memorization by doing exercises. There, you end up memorizing facts by solving problems and therefore building intuition. I agree that you need some level of memorization when you first "perform things," but if you're performing, it's not rote memorization.

Rote is memorizing integrals with flash cards. Building intuition is doing exercises. Might seem pedantic, but the difference is huge pedagogically.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#44
post #2

Pedagogy has at least two aspects. The rote component, which people usually deprecate, and the inductive/reasoned component, where you learn "how it is" not "what to do" The thing is, the rote component is (in my personal experience) much more important than people give credit to. You need to learn some axiom applied rules to be able to use "mental muscle memory" to perform things, and then once you can operate as a…

I have a related story that affirms your point.

I switched schools in tenth grade (1994). Till then, I was mostly interested in the science subjects. We had Physics, Chemistry and Biology as separate subjects. I had a pretty good chemistry set (compared to the crap you get these days) at home, I had a small microscope, I could create slides, do basic chemical analysis etc. That was sort of my domain. Math always seemed too abstract for me and while I liked some of the topics, I was never too good at it and treated it as "below me". Science subjects, I could reason from first principles and didn't have to study many things by rote. I rationalised this saying that it was because I was too intelligent to waste my time memorizing stuff and considered the ability to reason way more superior.

After switching schools, we had a mathematics teacher (who since passed away). His style of teaching was to make us practice with harder and harder problems. He had a tower of books with example problems in all the topics that were relevant to us and he made us do all of them. No calculators. It was tedious work and doing large integrals and complicated equations can be a chore. However, because of the sheer effort, I broke through some kind of wall and saw it was that I was really doing. I suppose it's analogus to an inductive rather than deductive way of learning. I was able to derive several formulae using basic Calculus which I had previously learned by rote in my physics classes. All the hidden patterns started to make sense and I learned to appreciate the subject very much and started seeing places where I could use it.

I've forgotten some of the topics which I don't use on a daily basis but the basic idea of doing grunt work to master a subject stuck with me. I also emphasise it when I teach my kids math. Lots and lots of problems. Till it becomes second nature. It's how I learnt how to code. It's how I learnt calligraphy. It came full circle when I started studying martial arts. The repetition of forms and drills to "learn" a technique is quite different from "learning the theory". It helps to have a teacher (coach) who pushes you but the basic idea that "doing is the best way to learn" is foundational.

Repetitio est mater studiorum as they say.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#45
post #23

Yes, it can. The biggest failure in math education is that we spend an inordinate amount of time solving equations without understanding how to apply them to solve real-world problems. Thanks to the calculator we can now spend less time figuring out how to solve x+1=7 and put that time on how to understand when the equation is needed in the real world or how to create an equation that will help solve a real-world pro…

I'm sorry, but if you don't know how to solve x+1=7, you don't actually understand maths.

I made it an easy equation to make a point. Pick your favorite multivariable set of equations. Depending on the situation a computer can solve it in a fraction of the time and with better accuracy than a human with pencil and paper. And it can create thousands of variations in a matter of minutes.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#46
post #23

Yes, it can. The biggest failure in math education is that we spend an inordinate amount of time solving equations without understanding how to apply them to solve real-world problems. Thanks to the calculator we can now spend less time figuring out how to solve x+1=7 and put that time on how to understand when the equation is needed in the real world or how to create an equation that will help solve a real-world pro…

I'm sorry, but if you don't know how to solve x+1=7, you don't actually understand maths.

Maybe that's fine? I mean I'm sure a lot of people who fix stuff up in their homes know very little of the physics behind their hammers, but they can still use them just fine.

Maybe a good tool does not need to be understood on a deeper level to be used.

If we gave students more exposure to maths as a tool to be used, rather than arcane formulae and symbolic manipulations, they could build an intuition and appreciation for it that allow them to use it even if they cannot perform the mechanical transformations of equations on their own.

I'm not saying x+1=7 is a good example of that -- my son, who is not even literate, could answer that in the blink of an eye. But recently I needed to get the implied marginal probability out of a partition of conditional probabilities, i.e. solve for p in something like e = ap + b(1-p). Could I have done it manually? Sure. Did I plug it into a symbolic solver? Absolutely.

For me the insight lay in (a) knowing that was the shape of the equation I knew, and (b) that I needed to rearrange it to get p as a dependent variable. Actually going through the motions is not that important, in my mind.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#47
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno if I agree with this, just sounding it out seeing how it feels. >>Can literacy be taught with hitting students with a stick when they err? >And then the answer is yes, as this is how it is done. (19th century). >Now, why would be want to do otherwise? Why would we ever want people to learn less? Maybe you don't learn less by not being hit? Even if my grandparents all had vastly better handwriting than myself. P…

> At some level of complexity we learn "too hard for me to integrate by hand" and also stop learning how to perform more and more complex integrals. We stop. Where is the most productive place, to maximise useful learning, to stop? I preface this by saying I find math very difficult. However, it is the struggle to understand in mathematics that leads me to understand the concepts. It often seems too hard, but I found…

The concept you're looking for is desirable difficulty, not too hard but not too easy either.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#48
Numerical Methods already made it pointless for me to learn how to solve different kinds of integrals.

I don't need to master any of the dozens symbolic integration techniques.

I am not sacred of any equation looking too complex to solve.

I just write less than 30 lines of python and have the solution to the problem via numerical methods.

At the end of the day what I care about is that answers, not symbolic techniques.

Re: Ask HN: Can calculus be taught without differentiating or integrating by hand?

#49
At the college I went to there was a class that involved solving differential equations in Simulink. The exams involved mostly creating diagrams on how the variables were related. The only prerequisite for that class was Calculus 2 so only a conceptual knowledge of Calculus was needed
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