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Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

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Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#41

Post by duffyjp »

bb88 wrote: post #14

This is the so called "enshittification" that's happening market wide. Vendor lock in sucks -- regardless whether it's Amazon, AWS, Apple or 1Password. The only real solution is to take your money and go elsewhere. Stop buying Apple products, say. Hell, I've even experienced vendor lock-in on FOSS products when the program crippled something I needed to use, or refused to fix an issue that caused me hours of tedious…

There's definitely a trend of FOSS products and older trivially priced products being bought up by companies that re-release in subscription models. So frustrating.

I always get recommendations on the Play Store for World of Goo, an amazing game from 2008 that you can now only play if you're a Netflix subscriber. The 1.7 star rating has convinced no suits that that might not be what people what.

On iPhone I used to use Frame Grabber all the time. It was free and the full source on GitHub. They sold the rights to a company who now charges $20/year for the same thing. No ill will to the original developer, but jeeze. $20 to get a slightly better quality frame from a video vs just screenshotting your phone? No thanks.

Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#42

Post by isodev »

I think you can disable automatic updates and it won’t prompt you to upgrade anymore.

If the update was already pending, then I can imagine it’s harder to stop (or not possible as the installation is already in progress).

Regarding 1password, I also hate the way they moved to a sub. I had a “lifetime” license before and unfortunately was forced to either update or leave. I opted to leave and started using a different app for passwords.

Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#43

Post by withinboredom »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #34
o11c wrote: post #32

Sony did lose its appeal during the PS3 OtherOS lawsuit (it ultimately settled) ... but for the macOS case can you not just reinstall? There may be a difference between inconvenience and impossibility.

You also need to show actual harm in a lawsuit. Inconvenience is not harm. "You increased my version number!" is not harm. "Your update put me out of business for a week" is harm.

That’s what class actions are for. The aggregate harm exists, though per-person is nearly none.

Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#44

Post by withinboredom »

pyeri wrote: post #25
rozap wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you forgot the /s tag? As a longtime android user, google is one of the worst offenders in this. One of the recent OS updates broke my bluetooth connection to my car, and that was the only new "feature" that I noticed. Both platforms have their own problems unique to them, but both platforms do share this issue.

Actually no. Google is merely the developer of AOSP (Android Open Source Project). The actual implementation and pushing of updates is up to your OEM or phone maker. Some OEMs are graceful in pushing updates, others aren't. But none to my knowledge pushes forced updates that user can't disable? Besides, you can always Flash/Root/etc. in the Android world with the power user shoes when something goes wrong, you can't…

Im not sure I would want root access to my car. Sounds like a liability nightmare in the event of a crash.

Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#45

Post by withinboredom »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #16

In America, almost certainly not, for a few reasons: 1. Almost every consumer agreement contains an arbitration clause. This means the number of consumers that actually can sue becomes incredibly small. 2. Security updates are real. In which case, let's say a company wants to add or remove a feature you may, or may not, want. If there was such an obligation to support exactly the same feature set, the company would b…

For (1), I feel like that wouldn’t hold up in court. If everyone were to go to arbitration, they would literally be unable to afford it, so it also sounds like a dumb business move.

Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#46

Post by paxys »

Etheryte wrote: post #38
albert180 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've needed 0 Seconds of hacking since using Fedora for 2 years. Linux has evolved in the last 14 Years

I can easily trust my older relatives to do fine on macOS, Linux would be either painful or more realistically a no go.

Older relatives aren't the ones complaining about auto updates and having full control of their hardware/software. iOS, macOS, Windows and the rest are in fact built with them in mind. This conversation is naturally about more technically inclined users.

Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#48

Post by rozap »

pyeri wrote: post #25
rozap wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you forgot the /s tag? As a longtime android user, google is one of the worst offenders in this. One of the recent OS updates broke my bluetooth connection to my car, and that was the only new "feature" that I noticed. Both platforms have their own problems unique to them, but both platforms do share this issue.

Actually no. Google is merely the developer of AOSP (Android Open Source Project). The actual implementation and pushing of updates is up to your OEM or phone maker. Some OEMs are graceful in pushing updates, others aren't. But none to my knowledge pushes forced updates that user can't disable? Besides, you can always Flash/Root/etc. in the Android world with the power user shoes when something goes wrong, you can't…

This was on a pixel, so the update was from google. And I don't want to root the phone, I just want it to work.

Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#49

Post by Isognoviastoma »

LoganDark wrote: post #31
albert180 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've needed 0 Seconds of hacking since using Fedora for 2 years. Linux has evolved in the last 14 Years

Oh yeah? I tried Silverblue a couple years ago, and the Nvidia driver stopped working after a motherboard swap. I tried Kinoite but KDE Plasma's subpixel antialiasing looks terrible on HiDPI displays. Maybe that's some of the "convenience and polish" that you just have to sacrifice in order to use FOSS, but I could also just use software that's properly polished and not care whether it is FOSS or not. And no, I'm not…

Was nvidia driver foss or proprietary?

Re: Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal

#50

Post by latexr »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #30
latexr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s please not turn this into a flamewar. There are dozens of reasons to not use Android, like there are dozens of reasons to use it. It’s a personal choice. When someone asks “how can I avoid this one thing”, the answer isn’t “switch to this alternative which has seventeen different problems you’ll dislike more”. The OP is asking a question on Hacker News. Surely they have heard of Android. They might even use it,…

Given that the OP is asking about a problem caused by not having enough control over the software they're running, it's entirely valid to respond by suggesting software that gives the user more control.

Given that the OP is asking for legal guidance and not a software recommendation, it is entirely invalid and unhelpful to respond by suggesting any software.

That’s particularly wrong when that software is not a real alternative, has a different set of constraints, and we have no idea if the OP uses it. As is already obvious by the conversation that is forming, the commenter’s post isn’t even a universal truth. They made an argument which doesn’t apply at all and we’ll end up with a bunch of unproductive comments.

Flamewars only produce anger and division. Don’t start them.

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