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Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

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Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#41

Post by popularonion »

cpeth wrote: post #24
gregjor wrote: post #3

No, you shouldn't generalize from a few examples. A good referral will get your CV in front of the hiring manager, skipping the screening and HR process. If you just get permission to put someone's name on the application that may not count for much. You should ask your contacts to get you on the short list so you bypass at least some of the hiring funnel. Right now the job market for more junior people looks brutal…

I think it might be brutal for more than junior people now. I thought I would be fine when my previous employer decided to offshore all of engineering and I was laid off as a result. I have been at an architect/lead/principal level for the last 7 years doing backend work with mostly state-of-the-art tech on AWS. 15 years experience total, and just getting no traction despite referrals. None of my jobs were at hypersc…

I have 15 years of experience working on boring tech stacks, no social media presence at all, and I’m doing okay.

I’d suggest hitting up some tech recruiters and downgrading your past job titles. As far as your job search is concerned, you weren’t a “lead architect” using “state-of-the-art tech”, you were a Staff DevOps Engineer with experience in . Etc etc.

Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#43

Post by thoughtegting »

herval wrote: post #39
thoughtegting wrote: post #37

This probably won't sound satisfying but I can give you an honest answer from my own experience since I am seeing a shift in the hiring/interviewing/recruiting process myself. I think the market is a bit wonky at the moment. You have an exodus of talented folks from many tech companies, people competing internationally for remote positions, people using AI on the recruiting side, hiring end, and as applicants who tai…

The resume tailoring thing will make CVs essentially worthless very soon. Question is what can replace it

good problem to tackle and I'm sure companies are willing to pay for something remotely close to "good enough".

Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#44

Post by pardoned_turkey »

lubujackson wrote: post #31
pardoned_turkey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters why you're making the referral. I've seen far too many referrals made just because a stranger or a social acquittance pinged an employee on LinkedIn. And the employee's thinking is "why not". After all, they're helping a person in need and there might be a referral bonus for them down the line. I'm a recruiting coordinator or a hiring manager, there's nothing that signals to me that this is a good lead. I…

Even if a referral comes from a LinkedIn random request, I would value that as a signal that, at a minimum, the prospect is putting in extra effort beyond most "click to apply" resumes. If you get 200 resumes for a role and lets say 20 come with a referral, why wouldn't you factor that at all?

Interviewing takes time and effort, so it's best to focus your energy on promising leads. A strong endorsement from a person who worked with a candidate is a very promising signal. Without getting into the possible whys, "this stranger contacted me on LinkedIn instead of applying via the normal channels" usually isn't.

Of course, depends on how your pipeline looks like. But most tech job reqs get a lot of applications and passive leads.

Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#45

Post by neilv »

lubujackson wrote: post #31
pardoned_turkey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters why you're making the referral. I've seen far too many referrals made just because a stranger or a social acquittance pinged an employee on LinkedIn. And the employee's thinking is "why not". After all, they're helping a person in need and there might be a referral bonus for them down the line. I'm a recruiting coordinator or a hiring manager, there's nothing that signals to me that this is a good lead. I…

Even if a referral comes from a LinkedIn random request, I would value that as a signal that, at a minimum, the prospect is putting in extra effort beyond most "click to apply" resumes. If you get 200 resumes for a role and lets say 20 come with a referral, why wouldn't you factor that at all?

My take on that, with some background...

When one FAANG was very young, I knew a non-computers researcher who'd heard of the company and wanted to work there. But I figured that the company was still at the stage that they thought they only needed computer people and a few business people. (So I'd expect the non-computer researcher's resume, submitted cold, to be shredded by HR after a 1-second glance.)

So I asked a kindly and famously well-connected professor whether they had a contact there. Something like, so the researcher could explain what value they could bring that the company might not yet realize it needed.

Turns out, the professor had a strong connection to one of the top Poobahs at the company, and arranged an introduction for the researcher.

But later, when I wanted to work at that same company myself, and the company asked for a list of people I knew at the company, there were some, but I didn't feel comfortable doing that. Those contacts didn't have that much familiarity with my work, it felt more like an old-boys network or nepotism rather than a justifiable use of connections, and my software engineering resume should've been strong enough to get it in front of someone who could guess that I'd bring useful things.

Going back to the people who cold-contact strangers on LinkedIn for a referral: I'm not sure that's positive signal. It shows some effort, but it could also be seen as trying to game the system, or to abuse an employee's potential conflict of interest when referral bonuses are involved. Surely there are more unambiguously positive signals to be found in that stack of 200 resumes?

Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#46

Post by caydenm »

The strength of a referral, the proximity and seniority of the referrer and role fit all come into play.

A strong referral by a knowledgeable person often skips that person to the front of interview queue. I have hired a number of people based on referrals from team members, VCs and previous coworkers.

Many referral systems have a how good do you think this personal really is field and often an option for "I don't know this person that well I am just referring them to say I did".

If you are asking for a referral, make it as easy as possible for the referer to make you look great. They probably don't remember all your awesome work like you do, so make sure you give them simple impactful points.

Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#47

Post by toasted-subs »

Clubber wrote: post #18
tyingq wrote: post #14

There's two kinds of referrals...the official ones with a program that goes through HR, then the unofficial where someone you know knows a hiring leader with an open spot. The latter is infinitely better.

This. Referrals don't mean much at a company with a heavy, rigid bureaucracy. You still have to go through the machine.

Anecdotally, providing references for one organization seems to open doors for others.

Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#48

Post by philosopher1234 »

neilv wrote: post #45
lubujackson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if a referral comes from a LinkedIn random request, I would value that as a signal that, at a minimum, the prospect is putting in extra effort beyond most "click to apply" resumes. If you get 200 resumes for a role and lets say 20 come with a referral, why wouldn't you factor that at all?

My take on that, with some background... When one FAANG was very young, I knew a non-computers researcher who'd heard of the company and wanted to work there. But I figured that the company was still at the stage that they thought they only needed computer people and a few business people. (So I'd expect the non-computer researcher's resume, submitted cold, to be shredded by HR after a 1-second glance.) So I asked a…

It’s a lot more work to find the signal in a stack of 200 resumes. Gaming the system is a good signal itself. The system has to be overcome to get things done.

Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#49

Post by coldtrait »

I have enough experience but not senior level yet and no impressive companies on my resume. My experience so far while being laid off has been not so promising so far with referrals:

No response from Intuit

Rejection from Atlassian

The previous job I had at a decent organization was without a referral. The one before that too, which was a mid size consultancy firm was without a referral.

Re: Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?

#50

Post by MarkMarine »

john-radio wrote: post #9
MarkMarine wrote: post #4

They are not worthless at all, at my company if you get a referral you will skip the phone interview and go right to in-person, and you're going to get called about it. When we are hiring. There is the rub, there are a number of companies that are either actively laying off, or just letting attrition nibble down their numbers without having to announce layoffs.

> or just letting attrition nibble down their numbers without having to announce layoffs. When you say it like that it sounds mean, but it's a pretty civilized way to handle downsizing if you ask me.

I didn’t mean it to sound mean. I much prefer that to layoffs.
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