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Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

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Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#41

Post by throwaway1183 »

Exuma wrote: post #36
throwaway1183 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, take your time! After reading your reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36693161 , it resonated with me because I am this type of learner. I need to break things fast, reach the wrong answer, and get stuck so that I can see examples and learn from them. It is really good at getting what is out there. But being in academia surrounded by people who learn from abstraction and words, I can't get any confiden…

It's absolutely not fake. I still haven't replied yet but I did want to say this one thing while you're waiting... A lot of people dislike MBTI by saying its "not scientific," but this to me is irrelevant as I am an extremely introspective person who has dived to the ends of the earth to understand myself. I've spent what must be 100,000+ hours introspecting and for most of my life there existed many many paradoxes t…

I did these tests some times ago! If I fall into INTP/ENTP because I think of myself as an ambivert and my introvertness is a spectrum that varies with my emotions.

Thanks for pointing a out functions! Will definitely check it out.

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#42

Post by throwaway1183 »

icedchai wrote: post #40
throwaway1183 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Learning is part of the job. I don't know what to say. For example, I recently designed some webpage or made some prototype app using X framework in Y language. Do you consider that I learnt something? I don't know, I feel like that isn't learning. I just made the thing work because I read some stuff, processed information and did some hit and trial. Compared that to something like "ah hah!" moments; those are extr…

Yes, I would consider that learning something! You figured some things out after reading stuff. Presumably, some of that information was retained and will help you in the future. Maybe you don't remember all of it, or even most of it, but if you see the same pattern again, hopefully you'll know where to look. I run into "average" developers who won't even look for an answer. They don't realize their problem has proba…

> They don't realize their problem has probably been solved many, many times before. They'll attempt to reinvent the wheel instead of using a proven solution like an existing library. They'll literally stare at an error message, not paste it into Google, then tell the team they're "blocked" a couple days later

That just sucks. And that is the average? I have really skewed view of average then! Because I think of myself as average and I don't do any of those stuffs. I am actively seeking solutions and methods. If I had to write from scratch, I would only do when there is hard requirement and a proper reference exists. Without proper reference it would be a nightmare!

> What is the "proper way" of learning to you? Do you want to be taught in a classroom?

I never believed in learning at the classroom. It never worked for me as I got bored and tired. Sometimes when I was stuck, classroom helped but most of the time I couldn't focus.

For me proper learning requires immersion and building intuition. There is factual learning where I just take facts for granted. Then there is building intuition and understanding why the facts are like so. If I can follow these patterns, I reach a state where I will have solid high level intuition of a topic and I call myself to be learned. Once I am at that stage, I can create and think of new ideas/triggers ultimately allowing me to see patterns of possibilities. When I don't reach there, I don't feel I have done my work on learning.

It takes a lot, and genuinely a lot of time to reach that state of mind. And even if you reach there, it is under constant threat of being overwritten by other memories. However, once you have a baseline, you can easily remember more facts and how to do things.

I hope it makes sense!

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#43

Post by badpun »

icedchai wrote: post #7

Do you really want to be "average" at your job? What do you really want to do? I've worked with barely average developers and believe me, they frustrate the rest of the team. They'll copy-and-paste the same code 5x instead of asking where they should put a new module. They'll commit untested code into main, and leave it to the next guy to clean it up, just so they can close their ticket. Communication is often poor.…

That's not average, that's bottom of the barrel. Average developers do a decent enough job, but aren't super fast about it. They also can't conceive of large refactorings in their head, don't follow all the latest trends in their area of expertise etc. They're just average. Majority of working developers are like that, by definition.

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#44

Post by badpun »

Exuma wrote: post #29
android521 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By definition , most people must be average programmers. everyone cannot be 'extraordinary'. I am pretty sure that you're probably average too unless you're better than 99% of the programmers.

I'm absolutely not talking about "average programmers", also I am better than average by a large margin (based objectively on what I have achieved alone as a developer/entrepreneur, and comments made by another developer who is a pioneer in his field, and one of the best developers I know), but that is beside the point. I'm talking about WANTING to be average, and the other assorted insane views this OP has. Nothing…

People don't start at being average. Average is (by definition) where majority of developers arrive at after years in the industry.

Also, it's perfectly fine to aim at being average - one may be aware of various limitations (health, intelligence, memory, ADHD and similar disorders, family situation) that will likely limit them to being average at best. If they aim for being a star despite those limitations, they risk burning out and getting nowhere.

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#45

Post by badpun »

Exuma wrote: post #27
throwaway1183 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, what is wrong with being average and trying to enjoy life? I am pretty sure you have zero contribution to llvm, pytorch, react, vue, js, c, python, linux, or heck even the device you are typing. You also fall on same average category. If you had any idea, you would have written something about it. The talent at top are polite enough to see the difference. Your arrogance reminds me of some egoist friend.

You have so many warped views I don't even know where to start. God have mercy on your soul. I have given up on hopes of learning. There is no such thing as learning after highschool. It's always one thing after another. College is chasing grades. Post graduate chasing papers. Never got a true chance to dive and learn. There is no room for failure. All I had to do was put of patch work to clear the subjects. How can…

> These statements are the true definition of a loser.

I never got how someone who wants to simply get by by doing minimal (or prererably none, but that's not usually possible) amount of work is a loser, but someone who say inherited millions and does nothing their whole life is not a loser.

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#46

Post by badpun »

Exuma wrote: post #31
throwaway1183 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so going by your definition, I am a loser. Your first attempt put me in a derogatory way saying, "Stay far away from my companies.... barf" Then you stick to the idea of calling me a loser from your point of view. I don't know what you are trying to prove but I was just asking a question on a way to genuinely get by in life. We do not live in the same world. So what rule applies to you doesn't apply to me. Yet…

Answering in order: First of all, YOU are not a loser, but your viewpoints are. That is a large difference, as at ANY point you can have a moment of introspection to change your mind and beliefs, to be better. That's one of the greatest things about life is you can choose to be whatever you want to be, simply by doing it. Tough love never hurt anyone, I find the best answer is the answer which resonates the truth. I…

> The vast amount of my time, 10-15 hours a day is spend coding on any one of my companies

This is the key. Vast majority of people can maybe code for 20 hours a week, and not 60-100 like you can. If you're blessed with such genetics, your mindset makes sense, as it will actually generate good payoff for you. However, bear in mind that regular ("average") people play in a different, much lower league.

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#47

Post by throwaway1183 »

badpun wrote: post #43
icedchai wrote: post #7

Do you really want to be "average" at your job? What do you really want to do? I've worked with barely average developers and believe me, they frustrate the rest of the team. They'll copy-and-paste the same code 5x instead of asking where they should put a new module. They'll commit untested code into main, and leave it to the next guy to clean it up, just so they can close their ticket. Communication is often poor.…

That's not average, that's bottom of the barrel. Average developers do a decent enough job, but aren't super fast about it. They also can't conceive of large refactorings in their head, don't follow all the latest trends in their area of expertise etc. They're just average. Majority of working developers are like that, by definition.

It seems like both of us have similar definition of an average. That's really cool that you got my idea of being average. Thank you!

So do you have any clue how I can optimize the position in the industry? I am interested in the most of the subtopics in the field of computer science. I just want to find a route with highest reward for an average developer.

Apparently average research engineers makes a lot compared to say web developer, but the route requires PhD.

What do you think is a good track?

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#48

Post by badpun »

throwaway1183 wrote: post #47
badpun wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not average, that's bottom of the barrel. Average developers do a decent enough job, but aren't super fast about it. They also can't conceive of large refactorings in their head, don't follow all the latest trends in their area of expertise etc. They're just average. Majority of working developers are like that, by definition.

It seems like both of us have similar definition of an average. That's really cool that you got my idea of being average. Thank you! So do you have any clue how I can optimize the position in the industry? I am interested in the most of the subtopics in the field of computer science. I just want to find a route with highest reward for an average developer. Apparently average research engineers makes a lot compared to…

Those "average" PhD researchers are in reality all very smart and hard working people. If you want big salaries, people who get them often have PhD degree from top20 universities in the world. They will be your competition when interviewing.

In general, if you want to maximize money, it does not make sense to go into any hard and niche fields (graphics, machine learning research etc.) because they're filled with very talented enthusiasts, and if you're not that, you will have a very hard time even being average in such fields. Not to mention that such fields often (but not always) pay less that your run of the mill backend development job, and have 1000x less open positions, which means it's harder to apply for jobs, you may have to move more often etc. It's basically all downsides pretty much, and the only upside is being able to work on your passion - which is what motivates people who get into those fields.

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#49

Post by throwaway1183 »

badpun wrote: post #48
throwaway1183 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like both of us have similar definition of an average. That's really cool that you got my idea of being average. Thank you! So do you have any clue how I can optimize the position in the industry? I am interested in the most of the subtopics in the field of computer science. I just want to find a route with highest reward for an average developer. Apparently average research engineers makes a lot compared to…

Those "average" PhD researchers are in reality all very smart and hard working people. If you want big salaries, people who get them often have PhD degree from top20 universities in the world. They will be your competition when interviewing. In general, if you want to maximize money, it does not make sense to go into any hard and niche fields (graphics, machine learning research etc.) because they're filled with very…

> It's basically all downsides pretty much, and the only upside is being able to work on your passion - which is what motivates people who get into those fields.

Yes!! I can totally relate to what you are saying. I got started because I was interested and I am still passionate about it. But there is only so much that I can do. It just doesn't make sense for me to continue for PhD because even with PhD there is no guarantee that I would be able to get somewhere as I am definitely not someone coming from those top20 universities.

So by definition I rule out the chances of being an average research engineer. That's one clarity! Thank you!

Since I have most background in hard niches as you mentioned above, is there a way to transition to something else? What would the possible path be like if my ultimate goal is to become staff engineer or principal engineer?

Re: Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

#50

Post by icedchai »

badpun wrote: post #43
icedchai wrote: post #7

Do you really want to be "average" at your job? What do you really want to do? I've worked with barely average developers and believe me, they frustrate the rest of the team. They'll copy-and-paste the same code 5x instead of asking where they should put a new module. They'll commit untested code into main, and leave it to the next guy to clean it up, just so they can close their ticket. Communication is often poor.…

That's not average, that's bottom of the barrel. Average developers do a decent enough job, but aren't super fast about it. They also can't conceive of large refactorings in their head, don't follow all the latest trends in their area of expertise etc. They're just average. Majority of working developers are like that, by definition.

You are correct. I was being polite, thinking about people I've worked with in the past. They literally commit untested, not even runnable code with syntax errors, merge it into main, and wonder why other people are frustrated. It goes beyond "attention to detail" issues which are also very common with average developers.
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