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Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

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Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#41

Post by brailsafe »

eukgoekoko wrote: post #17

That's hilarious. I used to work as a senior backend developer in one of Berlin's startups. Another senior BE dev was a native Russian speaker, so despite our fluency in English we started chatting in Russian now and then. Our conversations were meaningful and respectful (unlike those held by our predominantly Italian sales team who would shout out words like "cazzo"). We didn't mean to exclude anyone either, we only…

Seems like you might hold some resentment towards her, and that you're not so self aware about alienating colleagues.

If she felt like the right choice was to bring it up with management, it would seem fairly clear that she felt you were speaking Russian often enough that it would be an imposition to communicate with you, in a way that's quite common in Berlin and in Berlin startups. Though obviously not as much as German, it would be the common crossover language.

If you're senior and they're junior, part of your job is mentorship, and you should be making it as easy as possible to consult with more experienced people if necessary.

Those are the general principles I've always followed, and would do so regardless of whether they seemed incompetent or not. You need to be able to set your ego aside.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#42

Post by rpastuszak »

mellosouls wrote: post #39

It's not clear whether you are in an English-speaking country. If you are, then personally I think it is really bad form for the other team members to be speaking in a foreign language when the native English speaker is present. It's rude and disrespectful and I think it's bizarre that we are in this contemporary situation where we are afraid to say that. If I was working in a foreign country where the native languag…

Why not just speak with them directly first?

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#43

Post by beaker52 »

eukgoekoko wrote: post #27
iLoveOncall wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because junior devs do not have to participate in the discussions about architecture design This is incredibly wrong. Even in the case where a junior wouldn't be able to contribute to the discussion meaningfully (and that would be wrong too), they can learn from it.

> Even in the case where a junior wouldn't be able to contribute to the discussion meaningfully ... they can learn from it. Do you mean to say junior devs should be a part every single meeting held by senior engineers? This is utter nonsense, sorry.

I personally think they should be invited so they can learn and participate. If you want to reserve decision making responsibility for the seniors, that’s fine.

Regardless of whether juniors attend “senior” meetings or not, seniors should be transparent with juniors by showing them exactly how they should be operating —especially around operational subjects. Using language which isn’t common to all team members (whether Russian, English or any other language) is not the way to build a healthy team of people, in my experience.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#44

Post by dnh44 »

csydas wrote: post #14

Just talk to them. In English. I've worked in a multi-language business for many years where I did not speak all the languages, and there are two points I think you need to take to heart 1. No one can guess what you're feeling/thinking, you need to tell them 2. Don't take it personally if people are doing what comes naturally to them Your comment on benefit of the office is understood, but misguided; your colleagues…

>your colleagues don't have an obligation to you or the company to hold every conversation in English.

English isn’t my first language (I struggled to learn English as a kid) and I rather heavily disagree with this statement.

There’s nothing about the situation that’s acceptable. Communicating well is arguably the most important thing in any knowledge workers job and this is already a difficult task for some people even when they all speak the same language.

Obviously in this case it’s valuable for the team to be able to explain things for the non English speaking employee but that shouldn’t turn into a situation where Mandarin becomes the default. Additionally they are doing a massive disservice to the employee who isn’t yet comfortable with English.

It should be possible for OP to express such a view from a position of strength without coming across as an asshole (https://youtu.be/HbvYeLxMKN8) and without feeling self conscious about it as many monoglots seem to be in these sorts of situations.

I’ve worked closely with a multinational technology company based out of Germany that had a lot of Spanish, Italian, and French speakers and there was most definitely an obligation to speak English, even at the headquarters in Germany where the number of native English speakers could be counted in single digits.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#45

Post by aastronaut »

eukgoekoko wrote: post #27
iLoveOncall wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just because junior devs do not have to participate in the discussions about architecture design This is incredibly wrong. Even in the case where a junior wouldn't be able to contribute to the discussion meaningfully (and that would be wrong too), they can learn from it.

> Even in the case where a junior wouldn't be able to contribute to the discussion meaningfully ... they can learn from it. Do you mean to say junior devs should be a part every single meeting held by senior engineers? This is utter nonsense, sorry.

GP isn't talking about meetings, where some dedicated time and space is spent to discuss a certain topic.

I have two policies for casual work-related discussions:

- discussions should have outcomes

- it shouldn't exclude anyone (not the same as: it should include anyone!)

...and a simple policy for non-work related discussions:

- feel free to chat about private topics however and to whomever you prefer

So:

- try to schedule meetings for important things and make anyone that could/wants to learn from it feel included

- if it's just casually pondering about architectural things and there is an outcome, you are obliged to provide a non-exlusive summary to the other team members (and should be able to give a reason on why this discussion was taking place exclusive to others like it did)

- and, if there isn't an outcome, the discussion wasn't worth its time and there shouldn't be a need to involve anybody else

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#46

Post by pwim »

I’ve been on the opposite side of this, being a native English speaker working in Japan.

I’d talk to your manager about it, but focus on your feelings of exclusion rather than proposing any specific solutions. It’s certainly natural to feel what you’re feeling.

But I’d also recognize that an “English only” policy is also going to have downsides for your team. At the very least the member who’s struggling in English will be put into a similar position to you, but it might also lead to the other Mandarin members just talking less altogether.

There are also things you can do to help foster communication. Even if you’re a fluent speaker of a language, group discussions can be challenging - often by the time you’ve formulated your thoughts it’s already moved on. One on one communication is much easier, so you could go out of your way to make opportunities for it. Pair programming, for instance, can work even when your pair isn’t a fluent speaker.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#47

Post by xdfgh1112 »

glassconclusion wrote: post #32
xdfgh1112 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint - learning Chinese as an adult who natively speaks English is incredibly hard. If you don't have enough motivation, it is a tedious slog that takes at least a thousand hours of work. I don't think "talking to coworkers" is enough motivation.

Totally agree. I would also like to add that, as a non-native, pretty fluent Mandarin speaker, it is pretty hard to chitchat with Chinese colleagues, especially when it is a big group and they come from different parts of China.

I speak Japanese but similar experience. One on one is fine but a group of native speakers together is hard mode!

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#48

Post by eukgoekoko »

langsoul-com wrote: post #25
eukgoekoko wrote: post #17

That's hilarious. I used to work as a senior backend developer in one of Berlin's startups. Another senior BE dev was a native Russian speaker, so despite our fluency in English we started chatting in Russian now and then. Our conversations were meaningful and respectful (unlike those held by our predominantly Italian sales team who would shout out words like "cazzo"). We didn't mean to exclude anyone either, we only…

Bro wtf is with that end? > but may I ask you: what's wrong with you? How do you think, does your attitude have something to do with xenophobia? Completely outa the blue based on what came before.

Xenophobia is literally a "fear of unkown". What I meant to say is that one could rationalize irrational fear of unknown speech with this feeling of exclusion, but could it be it's just uncommon sounds and intonations that make you feel uncomfortable? I've mentioned Italian sales for this very reason: facing a different culture would naturally raise questions within you: - are they talking shit behind my back? - do they have something against me? this all depends on your levels of paranoia and xenophobia. As a person coming from a vastly monocultural society I used to feel this, too. I believe the solution to this is being open for everyone and overcoming xenophobic sentiments and by no means complaining to the boss.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#49

Post by iudqnolq »

I've never worked that kind of job, so I don't know much.

I don't understand all the other commentators suggesting going directly to your manager or even HR without first talking to them, though.

I think it'd be a bad idea to let this fester to that point without giving them the courtesy of a simple conversation. I wouldn't make it a big deal. One specific time you think they're probably talking about the project come over and say hi in English. If they don't switch language, ask them if they mind switching to English. Keep doing that and maybe eventually they'll realize the problem.

If that fails, directly ask them to speak English when talking about work as a group because you need to be able to participate. If that fails only then do you escalate to your manager.

Re: Ask HN: How to deal with my team speaking a different language?

#50

Post by mellosouls »

rpastuszak wrote: post #42
mellosouls wrote: post #39

It's not clear whether you are in an English-speaking country. If you are, then personally I think it is really bad form for the other team members to be speaking in a foreign language when the native English speaker is present. It's rude and disrespectful and I think it's bizarre that we are in this contemporary situation where we are afraid to say that. If I was working in a foreign country where the native languag…

Why not just speak with them directly first?

Of course you should - in an ideal world. But in the current culture in some environments that can get you in trouble.
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