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Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

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Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#41

Post by pyrodactyl »

giantg2 wrote: post #31

You can't argue with your bosses because they don't care about the points you make. They have the power and know it. You can migrate, or find better job. Maybe look into unionizing (no idea about your country). I learned this a few years ago. I can make great arguments but it doesn't matter. The boss has his mind made up and he'll say anything, even blatant BS, to justify it.

I agree that these are blatant lies. Unionizing seems impossible? I'm not sure what it entails and how would one even go about it.

Someone else mentioned about taking up contract work, which seems like something I can give a shot at.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#43

Post by christophilus »

danielfoster wrote: post #18

The answer is the same here as for anyone else who wants a substantial raise. You need to find a new job. It’s possible your current employer could match a new offer or even pay you more, but first you need to show them you’re serious about leaving.

I second this. Another option is the one Manish Pabrai took: do just enough work to not get fired, and spend the excess time and energy building your own business.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#44

Post by philippejara »

pyrodactyl wrote: post #9
tarakat wrote: post #7

The reasons they gave are lies. They're paying you less because (they think) they can. That's all there is to it. Another reason is because they know where you live, and the salaries in that location. Keep that in mind when someone says they have "nothing to hide" - this is how companies use such information. To better determine the absolute minimum they can offer you (or maximum they can sell you).

And they have publically published those lies like it's something to be proud of? Reading the link my manager shared with me about these reasons, which is publically accessible, made me want to puke.

Well, calling them "lies" is a bit out there, but not entirely incorrect, rationalizations is probably the best way to describe it. The reason it's done is because people where you are from take those jobs at these rates and aside from maybe a different tax burden specific to your country, that's about it.

I don't know the size of the company or how the split is regarding the area you're from and the US/EU but they might have allocated budget to employment counting on this split and not be able to pay for a generalized change, hence why they'd offer if you moved, but offering while being where you are could be "dangerous" as other people in the same position as you might ask for raises as well.

I can't make sense of the "trapping" argument however.

Now, those are the reasons I can see for the policy to be in this way, you are free to disagree, as do I, but the only real answer is going to come from the higher ups. If it's a public company sometimes these kinds of things are listed in their releases with some notes, could be another place to look at.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#45

Post by sys_64738 »

It depends on your size of company. You might get a small company doing a one-off equalization that pays you way above the local rate but the reason most companies have presence in foreign markets is that labor is cheaper. When that labor increases then they move elsewhere to keep costs down. It's the whole reason for having foreign locations for most US companies. If it got to the stage where wages are starting to get such that the RoI isn't there then the company will pull out and bring the jobs home.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#46

Post by pyrodactyl »

seibelj wrote: post #29
pyrodactyl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see that my post might come off as complaining, but I asure you it's not the case. I do "hustle" as you call it, and that's why I wanted to know other opinions on this. And I'm not coming at this from a class based marxist ideology. I'm asking for equal pay for equal work, which isn't a radical idea. Also, though I do work in a software company, I am not a developer or deal with serious tech in anyway.

Your other post said you were demoralized and “quiet quitting”, or collecting a paycheck and fucking around. That may work for a while, but long term you will be unfulfilled and miserable. It’s time for a change

Definitely a time for change, but that doesn't invalidate my argument about equal pay

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#47

Post by tlb »

wahnfrieden wrote: post #32
abcd_f wrote: post #27

It's in part the cost of living (which is a very valid argument) and in part basic supply/demand. If there is an oversupply of qualified people in your country willing to work for lower wages, that is what you are competing with, not people in the EU/US.

nothing valid about it except that it's an established coordinated behavior of employers to reduce pay based on region instead of anything to do with value produced

Wages have never been based on value produced, at any time, in any industry.

Although there may be some coordination, coordination isn't necessary for wages to be unrelated to value produced, because that's the default condition. It would take some impressive central planning to have wages actually match value produced.

Doctrinaire economists used to argue that value produced sets an upper bound on pay, since why would a company pay someone more than the value they produce? But there are plenty of exceptions to that, discussed for instance in David Graeber's book Bullshit Jobs.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#48

Post by mavelikara »

Does this same logic also apply to the price of goods and services you consume? For example, when you go to a restaurant in your location, do you pay them the same as an equivalent meal would cost in US/UK? The chef there is just as talented as one in the US, and the value of satisfying a human's hunger should be the same irrespective of location.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#49

Post by Uptrenda »

soneca wrote: post #33

It is a negotiation not a fairness discussion (even though fairness is part of the negotiation arguments). I asked about it in my current job before accepting the offer and was able to successfully negotiate it. In your situation, it seems that the only way is to look for a new job. Anyway, the way I negotiated was very simple. Basically a version of ”I understand that this is a good salary relative to my local marke…

Good advice. I do think the arguments these companies use is ridiculous. I think it's possible that these companies are knowingly exploiting OP because he comes from a lower economic background. I say this as an Australian where tech jobs here pay about half or a third as much as a US startup job yet I've never had any startups try offer me an Australian rate.

I wonder if there's more to this story? E.g. does OP work for a consulting company, an outsourcing company, freelance, does he use project-based job marketplaces? I am just wondering the situation.

Re: Ask HN: Location based pay is killing my motivation, how do others handle it?

#50

Post by r_hoods_ghost »

"If the company is willing to pay me that amount in a different location, why can't it pay me the same here?"

Because capitalism. Or more specifically because your company has very little incentive to pay you more than the market rate in your locale, unless you give them one. You can either try to do that as an individual by basically saying "I'll quit if you don't pay me more" or you can try to do it collectively with your fellow devs by organising and engaging in collective bargaining. Both paths are risky because your local employer might call your bluff (how special are you?) or even if you manage to get a collective bargaining agreement, there is no guarantee the parent company won't take a look at your division, decide that the numbers no longer add up and offshore your job somewhere even cheaper.

"What would the company gain if I work from a different location that they would pay me more?"

Having you, pyrodactyl work from a different locations? Your employer would probably gain nothing. Having a presence and hence a team in another location with a pyrodactyl-like employee doing pyrodactyl-like things. Probably quite a lot. Which is why companies don't generally off shore the entirety of their development teams even though that would be cheaper.

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