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Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

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Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#41

Post by isitmadeofglass »

smt88 wrote: post #2

Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. Universal basic utilities wouldn't work because it would need to be means-tested, and that's not easy to do. A household with $0 of income might have a secret $100M fortune somewhere. Should they get free electricity? It makes much more sense to have affordable utilities and just give people cash. If they want to use 10% of the elect…

> and that's not easy to do. A household with $0 of income might have a secret $100M fortune somewhere. Should they get free electricity?

Universal basic. That does not mean unlimited user decided usage, then it would not be basic, and it does not have any income restrictions then it would not be universal. If Elon Musk lived in Denmark he’d still get free doctors appointment and cancer treatment even though he’s rich. And yes that is fair. We help everyone who needs help equally, how much money you have or don’t have is completely irrelevant. No need to do background checks or have a Big system around figuring out if a patient deserves help or not, or figuring out patient details. The entire system is geared towards helping people no matter who they are, and that’s how it should be.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#42

Post by giantg2 »

sillystuff wrote: post #27
version_five wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. I'm canadian and our universal healthcare system sucks. It's very controversial here. Universal often means universally bad - picture your typical interaction with the government bureaucracy and imagine that for something important. It's the same reason you wouldn't want government run utilities (which Canada also has)

Universal health care needs to be funded. If your country elects politicians who underfund health care, then you should expect negative consequences on the system. Or, you could privatize your healthcare like the US, and pay multiple times more than the amount you've saved on your tax bill. And, expensive privatized health care does not mean better health outcomes; e.g., the US has worse infant mortality than either…

That's not a great metric for comparison of the healthcare systems. Outcomes for specific procedures or conditions would be more fitting. Many cultural and societal factors, even population genetics and the number of babies born in a year, influence infant mortality.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#43

Post by giantg2 »

smt88 wrote: post #2

Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US. Universal basic utilities wouldn't work because it would need to be means-tested, and that's not easy to do. A household with $0 of income might have a secret $100M fortune somewhere. Should they get free electricity? It makes much more sense to have affordable utilities and just give people cash. If they want to use 10% of the elect…

"Universal health care is not controversial in developed countries outside of the US."

Source?

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#44

Post by giantg2 »

xupybd wrote: post #30
smt88 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example don't have a medical emergency here. You'll wait more than 8 hours to get seen. This is the same as the US. When you go to the emergency room, you're triaged. If you don't seem to have an immediate, life-threatening emergency, you often wait hours to be seen. I think this is pretty typical. You can't scale medical staff and facilities rapidly by demand, and it's not sustainable to have the staff require…

I'm no expert on the US system but it seems to be much better. From this article. https://hbr.org/2019/02/to-reduce-emergency-room-wait-times-... "Patients who arrive at EDs with broken bones wait a painful 54 minutes, on average, before receiving any pain medication." That sounds like a dream to me. 54 minutes is nothing. My friend's wife waited over 8 hours to be seen after cutting through nerves and tendons in her…

How does the liability work there against the universal hospital?

Something like waiting 6 hours for a CT or instructing an injured pregnant woman not to eat would be ripe for a malpractice lawsuit in the US (provided actual harm occurs).

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#45

Post by giantg2 »

superchroma wrote: post #28
smt88 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An equivalent to that for power would be to cook up a baseline kWh usage for a household This just couldn't work in a fair way. People live in old houses, new houses, condos, etc. There are massive variations between households in terms of insulation, heating/cooling equipment, etc. In fact, I would wager that it's often cheaper to cool a wealthier person's 1,000 sqft home than a poorer person's 1,000 sqft home, ju…

Well, heating/cooling aren't essentials in many places. You could subsidize the cost of running a fridge and appliances but stop short of climate control. Alternatively, in places that are now reaching 50+ degrees celsius with high humidity at times, maybe subsidizing climate control is desirable to save lives?

What appliances would count? Some people have dishwashers, others don't. Some people use gas for stoves and hot water heaters.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#46

Post by giantg2 »

"Universal basic utilities (internet, electricity/gas, purified water) seem likely to be accepted versus giving everyone free money and health care."

Utilities are just as controversial in my opinion, probably even more so. There are homes in remote areas without utilities. Would we need to hook them up, or leave them behind? Some people would not include internet as a basic utility. Paying for gas usage is likely to lead to climate change debates over wether we should subsidize that. Setting some minimal universal level will also be hard since it will vary by region, by house type (HVAC, gas vs electric appliances, insulation, etc), appliance age/efficiency, family size, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#47

Post by xupybd »

giantg2 wrote: post #44
xupybd wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on the US system but it seems to be much better. From this article. https://hbr.org/2019/02/to-reduce-emergency-room-wait-times-... "Patients who arrive at EDs with broken bones wait a painful 54 minutes, on average, before receiving any pain medication." That sounds like a dream to me. 54 minutes is nothing. My friend's wife waited over 8 hours to be seen after cutting through nerves and tendons in her…

How does the liability work there against the universal hospital? Something like waiting 6 hours for a CT or instructing an injured pregnant woman not to eat would be ripe for a malpractice lawsuit in the US (provided actual harm occurs).

It's basically impossible to sue the government. In theory you could but I've never heard of anyone succeeding.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#48

Post by geoduck14 »

datavirtue wrote: post #20
mwachs wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt 66% of people insured in the US by their private system are satisfied. https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/canadians-largely-sat...

Be real here. No one needs the dystopian demeanor of the BMV when they are facing a health issue. There is a lot of room for improvement in our current system but the quality of our healthcare facilities and professionals is pretty damn good in the US. I wish the system would get out of their way and let them work.

Not to get off topic, but I'm actually quite satisfied with my DMV

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#49

Post by geoduck14 »

Yeahsureok wrote: post #33
trinovantes wrote: post #3

Same reason why universal health care is controversial: "I don't use as much as them, why should I pay for their use?"

Universal healthcare isn't controversial outside of the US. Who by the way spend far more per person than any other developed country on healthcare, that's both government and consumer spending.

Well, we have had the Obama care for a couple of years now - so we're good

Re: Ask HN: Why can't tax pay for universal basic utilities?

#50

Post by xupybd »

6510 wrote: post #36
xupybd wrote: post #14

Why do you want the government to run these basic utilities? Is it that you want more people to be able to access them? Is it that you think the government would be more efficient at running them? It's interesting to see what people are trying to optimize for they suggest different political systems.

Good question! Because we need them to work. Function should be the goal not profit. Ofc maintenance would require public involvement which we lack and which is why everything was privatized. We could do it differently, I like this formula: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_board_(Netherlands) > ...independent of administrative governing bodies like provinces and municipalities. It makes it extremely hard if not im…

I'd agree that function should be the goal and not profit. However if you can align the two then you get a self sustaining system.

If an individuals selfish ambition can be channeled to produce the best hospital systems we can have given the resources we have, that would be ideal.

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