The picture you're painting is far too simple. There are many metrics that play a role for different applications. A modern Nvidia card is magnitudes faster than any CPU and the M1 GPUs. A Nvidia A100 card has HBM memory with ~2TB/s bandwidth. On the other hand, there are areas where a ~5GHz intel CPU is competitive, or even older server chips with AVX can compete. So let's see what happens when Intel and AMD step to…
Both Intel and AMD have the major disadvantage of having (or, let's say, wanting) to maintain x86 backward compatibility - which means not only staying compatible with the almost 45 year old CISC instruction set of the Intel 8086, but also with the whole line of CPUs that came after it. All this ballast makes it harder for them to build an energy-efficient CPU. By contrast, Apple was able to just create a new CPU bas…
Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
41–50 of 323 posts
Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#42Imho they can as long as they agree to drop some sort if retro-compatibility. Modern cpus being able to run dos software is certainly nice, but it’s probably preventing intel/amd from performing some aggressive restyling and optimisation/refactoring to their isa and its implementation in silicon. Apple on the other hand happily deprecates its own os releases and the hardware supported. Software retro-compatibility is…
> Imho they can as long as they agree to drop some sort if retro-compatibility. What's the performance hit/wafer space for that today?
Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#43Intel is investing in RISC-V[0] as well as working on its own chips. But this kind of question is not new. 10-20 years ago nobody would be thinking ARM could catch up to Intel. But also, is your question just about laptops and mobile devices? I don't see Apple taking on server markets, where the power per watt is perhaps less important. Finally, lots of people will be using non-Apple hardware for a long time (think a…
While, as an HPC admin, I don't expect to see any Apple branded XServes in our system room for a long time (if ever), or their silicon on any other system, many HPC and data center operators would love to have servers with better performance per watt, because cooling these systems is a pain.
Everybody is moving to direct liquid cooling systems beyond a specific performance point, and this is not making things simpler.
Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#44"Qualcomm Confirms Nuvia Arm Chips Will Be in PCs by Late 2023" https://www.tomshardware.com/news/qualcomm-confirms-nuvia-ar... "Qualcomm acquired Nuvia in January 2021. The processor startup was founded by ex-Apple engineers who wanted to turn their talents to Arm-based system-on-chips (SoCs) for servers. Just a few months later Qualcomm provided an extensive update on its plans for Nuvia-technology SoCs, and it pub…
Qualcomm has been "on track" with desktop level chips based on their mobile platforms for at least four years. I've tested the first Windows on Arm laptop with a series 8 "desktop" Snapdragon in 2018. Yet, they still have to ship anything meaningful. They lake the vertical integration Apple has, and they will never have it. Hard for me to see how competitors (Qualcomm + Microsoft + OEMs) are supposed to go after Appl…
Talent can be poached [1] and Technology can be acquired [2]
[1] "Intel Poaches Head Apple Silicon Architect Who Led Transition To Arm And M1 Chips" https://hothardware.com/news/intel-poaches-head-apple-silico...
[2] https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2021/03/qualcomm-comp...
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The real problem - Apple is slowing down [3][4]
[3] "Apple CPU Gains Grind To A Halt And The Future Looks Dim As The Impact From The CPU Engineer Exodus To Nuvia And Rivos Starts To Bleed In"
https://semianalysis.com/apple-cpu-gains-grind-to-a-halt-and...
[4] "Apple M2 Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Big Cost Increase And A15 Based IP"
https://semianalysis.com/apple-cpu-gains-grind-to-a-halt-and...
details from [3]
"It appears Apple has not changed the CPU much this generation. SemiAnalysis believes that the next generation core was delayed out of 2021 into 2022 due to CPU engineer resource problems. In 2019, Nuvia was founded and later acquired by Qualcomm for $1.4B. Apple’s Chief CPU Architect, Gerard Williams, as well as over a 100 other Apple engineers left to join this firm. More recently, SemiAnalysis broke the news about Rivos Inc, a new high performance RISC V startup which includes many senior Apple engineers. The brain drain continues and impacts will be more apparent as time moves on. As Apple once drained resources out of Intel and others through the industry, the reverse seems to be happening now.
We believe Apple had to delay the next generation CPU core due to all the personnel turnover Apple has been experiencing. Instead of a new CPU core, they are using a modified version of last year’s core. One of these modifications is related to the CPU core’s MMU. This work was being done for the upcoming colloquially named “M1X” generation of Mac chips. Part of the reason for this change is related to larger memory sizes and virtualization features/support. In addition, there may be other small changes as well, but we need hardware in the hand to analyze that. We also aren’t sure if Avalanche and Blizzard are the next generation cores or the current modified Firestorm and Icestorm cores.
Regardless of the paltry CPU gains and potential core architecture delays, Apple is still the leader in performance per watt. With Intel design teams starting to get back on track, AMD executing almost flawlessly, and Qualcomm coming in soon like a hammer with Nuvia cores, we aren’t sure if this lead will be sustained. The A11 to A12 generation was seen as Apple starting to asymptote out on gains with only a 15% gain, and the A13 to A14 looked even more weak with 8.3% gains, but now with no CPU gains, let’s cross our fingers and hope the A16 brings a large architectural change." source: [3]
Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#45Quoted post unavailable.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i9-12900k-an...
It's very workload-dependent, so it's difficult to say how much power a chip will draw in general. It's clear that Intel is still a bit of an energy hog, though.
Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#46- Can you run ARM system on any ARM processor, or are you limited by core architecture, endianness (BE/LE), and RAM addressing, forcing you to recompile for specific SoC? I honestly don't know what are the exact limitations.
- Can you boot any ARM processor in one specific way like x86 processor? No you can't. Every ARM processor has its own booting mechanism and you basically need to bend your system to it.
This lack of standardization is the reason, why Android phones does not have universal Lineage OS, but has build for phone X, build for phone Y, build for tablet Z and on the other hand this basic standardization is what will keep x86 alive for decades to come.
Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#47Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#48Bob Dylan
Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#49> The Apple M1 Ultra SoC chip achieves 87% of the performance of the Intel 12900K and Nvidia RTX 3090
Benchmarks not run by Apple do not support this claim
In reality it is not competitive with chips five years old
Re: Ask HN: Can competitors catch up to Apple Silicon?
#50In general what I see as a massive issue for ARM and big win for x86 is standardization (or in case of ARM lack of) - Can you run ARM system on any ARM processor, or are you limited by core architecture, endianness (BE/LE), and RAM addressing, forcing you to recompile for specific SoC? I honestly don't know what are the exact limitations. - Can you boot any ARM processor in one specific way like x86 processor? No you…
But, maybe there can be a build automation which can handle all the hassle and minimize the randomness?