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Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

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41–50 of 309 posts

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#41
post #30

When you put it this way, it's really quite remarkable how tenuous our hold is on even paid for digital services. There is really nothing you could do with a car to prompt the car maker to take it from you. And the state will only take it if you break the law in particularly dangerous ways. When it comes to other possessions it's even harder for anyone to take them away from you. If I take a kitchen knife and stab so…

There's no way for them to take your car away... Yet.

Maybe one day your Tesla will simply drive off if you don't pay the bills, or worse work for the SEC

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#42
post #38

Buy a domain (I bought lastname.contact) and subscribe to Fastmail or a similar paid-for service. You can then use anything@lastname.contact and if your email service provider drops you, you can switch to another and not care about your contacts trying to reach you or updating the email address of all your online accounts. I couldn't be happier with the switch (I was using Protonmail before, and Gmail a long time ago…

I tried to do this long ago but I have two main fears: 1. Is it easy to set up the redirect from Gmail to the new account? 2. When I send email from new account (custom domain), how are you completely sure it is not going to be on spam? I send unsolicited emails to people in big corps (journalist asking for interviews/comments, not spammy :-)

> 1. Is it easy to set up the redirect from Gmail to the new account?

Yes super easy. You can do this using Gmail's filter service. However, many services will also let you log in to gmail via POP/IMAP (OAuth for auth) and fetch the email from your gmail for you that way.

> 2. When I send email from new account (custom domain), how are you completely sure it is not going to be on spam? I send unsolicited emails to people in big corps (journalist asking for interviews/comments, not spammy :-)

I guess it's hard to know for sure, but I've not noticed any problems with this when the underlying provider is a well-known sender such as Gmail or Fastmail.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#43
> Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

We should own our own stuff. Your email is your own data. No company should have the right to arbitrarily destroy or block your access to your data. Whether that service is free or paid for is irrelevant; offering a service for free isn't a license to rob and destroy.

I've argued this point multiple times (e.g [0]). Business who host your data should treat your data as your property and take responsibility for it. They don't have right to destroy it or put it through a virtual shredder any more than your landlord or car service should take your property to the junkyard.

I also consider it a security issue [1]; if you can't access your data (or worse: it's gone all of a sudden), security has failed. No, destroying data isn't the same as securing it. Google has poor security. Security should protect your data and your access to it.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30242824

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30055397

Unfortunately law seemingly hasn't quite caught up with the idea of digital property.

Notice that Google's automatic suspensions may very well be illegal under GDPR. This was discussed here recently [2]. Having been rejected a credit card application (an example of a decision that should't be made automatically, under GDPR [3]) and lost access to a gmail account, I can say the latter was much worse.

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30138669

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30140312

I host my own email these days, and I am my own domain registrar. If someone wants to take away my domain, they have to take it up with my government.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#44
A lot of us have also been caught out by Google announcing they are forcing free G-Suite Legacy users to upgrade.

Here is where I am heading (having given the matter much thought and some testing, trial and error)

Free Gmail/Cal account as I enjoy the software

My own custom domains with any registrar

Paid Fastmail account storing all my emails to all my domains/aliases at Fastmail

All Fastmail messages forwarded to Gmail

Mail from Gmail sent through Fastmail's smtp servers

This gives me the mail/cal app I like and the freedom to move. I don't have a problem with paid. Google are forcing Workspace on me when all I want is email with custom domains.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#45
Phone number porting is a thing due to regulation. I'm looking forward to having email address porting legislation, one day.

For full porting, there's a long road ahead, starting with regulating domain names, which email addresses depend on. However, as long as the domain name _de facto_ remains in the possession of the original provider, this is technically possible, already.

Email address porting might even be possible without a persistent domain/DNS entry. After phone numbers get ported, the _sender_ (of sms, or a call) caches the new routing, and the original carrier doesn't know the ported phone number is getting a call in the new carrier's network. I'd be interested in discussing this sort of thing for well established internet services (such a central authority already exists, ICANN, but perhaps legislators can come up with a non-US authority for emails)

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#46
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if you buy a house

Sure it can. Street-names can change, the numbering of houses in the street can change. At least, it can be changed by the municipality here in the Netherlands.

In the US too. A town in North Carolina recently renumbered the entire town.

Growing up, the houses on the street behind me got renumbered as well.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#47
post #30

When you put it this way, it's really quite remarkable how tenuous our hold is on even paid for digital services. There is really nothing you could do with a car to prompt the car maker to take it from you. And the state will only take it if you break the law in particularly dangerous ways. When it comes to other possessions it's even harder for anyone to take them away from you. If I take a kitchen knife and stab so…

> even something as crucial as a banking service

Interestingly the problem of people excluded from the banking system has been addressed by statutory regulation in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/basic-bank-account... ; see also discussion at https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldfi... which covers the question of people with inadequate ID.

Getting your email account wrongly banned is an injustice, whether trivial or costly, and whether or not you have alternative arrangements. That's why people are (generally) rightly cross that it's happening. That feeds into wider questions of "why is justice so expensive" and "how does a local justice system address the bad behavior of a multinational". These questions tend to get resolved incredibly slowly.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#48
post #40
post #30

When you put it this way, it's really quite remarkable how tenuous our hold is on even paid for digital services. There is really nothing you could do with a car to prompt the car maker to take it from you. And the state will only take it if you break the law in particularly dangerous ways. When it comes to other possessions it's even harder for anyone to take them away from you. If I take a kitchen knife and stab so…

But you can't really download a car, can you? :) Joke aside, I think we are actually going in the opposite direction. Looking at the way Tesla wants/already does keep a score of your driving, maybe self driving cars in the distant future, I would predict that we are going in the wrong direction when certain people and groups will want cars to drive away from you back to their home base or your car to refuse to start…

Yes that is true, as software keeps eating the world, software mores will eventually rule everything. If it has a microchip in it, it might ban you.

For cars I don't think this future is distant at all, ten years max.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#49

Apologies for going meta here: Could I urge that posters follow the site convention of prefixing the title with with Ask HN, Tell HN, etc. for posts that don't link to an external source? There are currently two such posts in the top 30. HN is primarily for discussing external articles, and I'd suggest that this post should have been submitted as such.

I wish there was just a dropdown in the "Submit" view to pick well-known prefixes.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#50
> I paid for it, so technically, don't I own it?

There's a lot of scenarios where you wouldn't want purchase of service to transfer ownership. People providing services have rights too. You don't get to do whatever you want with their brand, trademark, copyright. And you don't get to expect more service than is promised, or that you won't have your service taken away if the service owner doesn't want to deal with you anymore.

So you ask, well how can I be protected as a user of services? And the answer is: competition, being an informed consumer, and the occasional regulation.

> Do we own our identities? Do we own our phone numbers, emails, handles, PO boxes, addresses?

Those are all great examples of why there is no simple answer.

You do not own your phone number, but you do have the right to transfer it between carriers, thanks to regulation. You don't own your own email address, but you can rent a domain name and do what you want with your email address while you're renting the domain. You don't own your handle unless it is your real name and you go to court to protect it. You don't own a PO box, but you can rent it while you pay for it.

Ownership is often just a matter of possession. Who possesses your email address? Who possesses your PO box? Hell, who possesses your house? The land it's on? The access people have to it? The impact it has on neighbors?

Identity and ownership are complex ideas that are involved in many different levels of our society. As much as people want it to be simple, it just isn't. And the world is not going to get less complicated.

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