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Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

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Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#41

Post by thebean11 »

bccdee wrote: post #29
thebean11 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got it I see what you mean. In my mind though, the real innovation in web3 is native ability to move money around, and turing complete (ish) programmability. Comparisons to social networks seems like apples and oranges. It’s not a product that needs to be marketed to end users. Think AWS not Amazon.com. The people building products on it will do the marketing.

AWS does not have any trouble moving money around or writing programs to move money around. Finance has been digitized for ages. You might say "those are just digital abstractions — this is native. " But so what? What does it matter if my money transfer routine talks to a bank or broadcasts a new block? It does the same thing in the end, except that the blockchain version is slower and more expensive. Blockchain offe…

The value of nativeness combined with a totally neutral execution environment is that money can be directly controlled by software, with no practical human override. Suddenly the cost and risk of transactions goes down, as I don’t need to worry about whether I will get paid, or whether the intermediary actually handling the money will arbitrarily decide to freeze my account.

Obviously this is a double edged sword; having no human override is actually a very bad thing for many things. You can code in human overrides of course, but they are transparent to all parties. When you make a bank transfer or a PayPal transaction, it’s 100% opaque. The terms are not truly binding and it can be reverted or altered for any or no reason.

I’m not arguing this is the reason for valuations currently, but I find it pretty surprising how many people can’t or won’t understand the value of a neutral execution environment for financial transactions. It is not something that exists elsewhere.

Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#42

Post by cdrini »

labrador wrote: post #38
cdrini wrote: post #26

Note: not super versed in this space. My main info is from a Johnny Harris video where he debates himself on the subject of crypto. And I've looked into the tech a bit. I don't think I follow how crypto would help in your situation. At least your father could get a loan from the bank--and he got that loan because the bank looked at his history, trusted him, and took a bet he would succeed. And he can trust the bank,…

My Dad couldn't get a loan from the bank because he had a bunch of kids and a moderatly paying job. He wasn't able to implement his ideas without capital. First generations of immigrants to this country solve this by pooling thier money. Some cultures in America still do this. I'm thinking that web3 is an attempt to recreate those informal pools of captial. GoFundMe, Kickstarter and Patreon were a good start but they…

I would highly recommend this Johnny Harris video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0V_zkng4go . It does a great job of summarizing all the (too many!) points in the debate from a neutral standpoint--including enthusiasm. It's so neutral, that it actually leaves you feeling a little lost at the end :P Which I think is the state of the debate, unfortunately. But it'll probably get you closer to answers than I will--I'm afraid I don't have any.

Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#43

Post by satisfice »

Here is a thought experiment. Think what would happen if nothing stopped anyone from doing anything. Whatever peace and privacy and security you enjoy would be gone. No culture or work could be protected from the merest whim of a single nihilist.

Only children and other people with nothing to lose want a world of perfect liberty. Powerful and obsessed people might want that world because they think they are equipped to bend it to their will.

It’s not a paradise, it’s a nightmare. We need social order. We need responsible gatekeepers. I haven’t heard anyone explain how web3 leads to a kinder or safer world.

Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#44

Post by engineerDave »

thebean11 wrote: post #11
tpetry wrote: post #8

What if this new generation is just repeating the mistakes of former generations? They talk about decentralization which has been done so often before and only worked for niche use-cases. What if crypto is just a big money pump and dump scheme? It‘s sold to the poor to solve their financial situation which mostly don‘t have bank accounts. But the ones loosing the most in crypto crashes is not the new-generation web3…

> They talk about decentralization which has been done so often before What’s an example from earlier generations?

internet 1.0, post AOL, pre dot com crash. You had to roll everything and could even run a server with little fanfare from your home because ISPs allowed you to run your own servers. Now most prohibit or outright block it without a higher tier plan. There were problems with this approach though, spam, malware, etc.

It's only with Web 2 that we became addicted to offloading everything to central providers. Their siren call was too much to resist and now they have all our data. It wasn't designed to be like this, we can just go back but a lot lack the skills to roll the full stack now sans AWS/Google Cloud.

Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#46

Post by labrador »

pritambaral wrote: post #39
labrador wrote: post #36

Quoted post unavailable.

> ... contempt prior to investigation ... Are you implying that HN hasn't already "investigated" what you're asking? > ... you can't even brainstorm about it here. Looks like you're implying HN hasn't already "brainstormed" / thought about what you're asking. > Hacker News is unbelievably closed minded ... Consider this instead: you asked a question that has been debated many, many times over — to the point of nearly…

You make some good points. I gave an emotional response. My emotions come from frustration. I spend a fair amount of time on Hacker News and really love the site, but I'm upset that Hacker News is overwhelming negative, focusing on current technology shortcomings. You say the topic has been debated. I say it hasn't. It's been roundly rejected. That's not debate.

My post was an attempt, probably a lame one, to expand my own thinking and hopefully find one or two others who might look at it with a wide angle lens. Sadly, this didn't happen, so since posting this I've found other communities who are open to back and forth discussions about the topic. I'm an optimist. There's a story about about who is told to shovel manure out of a stable and is very happy about it. When asked why he said "with all this shit, there's got to be a pony around here!" I'm trying to find the pony. HN is the wrong place to look.

Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#47

Post by rcarmo »

If Web3 turns out to be a success, then I’ll just retire and take up woodworking because the entire tech industry has finally gone batshit insane.

(or, better yet, move back into consulting and wait until past wisdom is required, which shouldn’t take long).

Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#48

Post by DougN7 »

thebean11 wrote: post #41
bccdee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AWS does not have any trouble moving money around or writing programs to move money around. Finance has been digitized for ages. You might say "those are just digital abstractions — this is native. " But so what? What does it matter if my money transfer routine talks to a bank or broadcasts a new block? It does the same thing in the end, except that the blockchain version is slower and more expensive. Blockchain offe…

The value of nativeness combined with a totally neutral execution environment is that money can be directly controlled by software, with no practical human override. Suddenly the cost and risk of transactions goes down, as I don’t need to worry about whether I will get paid, or whether the intermediary actually handling the money will arbitrarily decide to freeze my account. Obviously this is a double edged sword; ha…

I’m in my 50’s and not getting paid or having account get frozen has never happened to me during my entire life, and is not something I’m concerned about. If would be cool if defi was solving an actual problem most people have, but I’m still not seeing it.

Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#49

Post by labrador »

cdrini wrote: post #42
labrador wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Dad couldn't get a loan from the bank because he had a bunch of kids and a moderatly paying job. He wasn't able to implement his ideas without capital. First generations of immigrants to this country solve this by pooling thier money. Some cultures in America still do this. I'm thinking that web3 is an attempt to recreate those informal pools of captial. GoFundMe, Kickstarter and Patreon were a good start but they…

I would highly recommend this Johnny Harris video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0V_zkng4go . It does a great job of summarizing all the (too many!) points in the debate from a neutral standpoint--including enthusiasm. It's so neutral, that it actually leaves you feeling a little lost at the end :P Which I think is the state of the debate, unfortunately. But it'll probably get you closer to answers than I will--I'…

This is really well done. Thanks. I should have made it more clear that my focus was on Defi and Dao.

Web3 has become a useless and triggering term.

Re: Ask HN: What if a new generation of developers is right about Web3?

#50

Post by labrador »

StewardMcOy wrote: post #40

Given your use of the phrase "the plebes who are getting ripped off" in a comment, I suspect your sympathies aren't really with the unbanked and the lower classes, but I will nevertheless try to give an answer as if the question was asked in good faith. No one can really predict the future, but if I had to put money down on it, I would bet that if Web3 attains its technological goals, it will not attain its social go…

> I suspect your sympathies aren't really with the unbanked and the lower classes

I guess it wasn't clear I am from a working class background, although I mentioned my father not being able to get a loan, which got down voted in negative territory for some weird reason

By plebe I meant the insufferable working class dudes I grew up with who are anti intellectual and tend towards bullying those around them with their muscle mass. I'm not sad they now think they are crypto experts and losing their shirts.

I thank you for your long response. I will study it and get back to you. I don't want to make an off the cuff remark about it.

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