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Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#41

Post by derac »

ecshafer wrote: post #15

What is old is new again. This has happened before. Graphical programming, low-code, no-code. They all inevitably hit a wall where it does not cut it. Either the performance is not good enough, they need to dip into real code to add features, etc. Then there are the issues like CICD and version control that they don't do well that hold them back, and then integrating with the rest of the company. Its just not worth i…

I agree completely. IPaaS tools are bad programming languages with awful tooling. The logic you need to transform some data, say, can become very complex quickly and you're stuck manipulating it with terrible graphical tools. When you inevitably find a bug, it's a huge pain to deal with.

For making a website with a store though, it can be great.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#42

Post by jl6 »

This is an imperfect analogy, but consider for a moment the role Microsoft Excel plays.

Excel allows non-coders to do many useful things, and provides a relatively gentle on-ramp to actual code via formulas. If you take that on-ramp and keep going, towards VBA and add-ins and other pieces of Microsoft technology, you might wind up becoming a full-time software developer, leaving Excel behind and using “real” tools.

Now, there’s a happy path and an unhappy path here.

The happy path is that you use Excel for what it’s good at, but recognize when you are operating at its limits, and at that point pivot into “real” software engineering tools.

The unhappy path is that you stick with Excel too long and become mired in the world of VBA and advanced formulas and attempts at shared workbooks, and build pseudo-database application-contraptions.

No-code can be like that early Excel usage: it can grant some limited but useful powers to non-developers. But no-code can also evolve to become like those contorted, unmaintainable spreadsheet monstrosities that stretch the technology far beyond the point where some “real” software engineering would have been the right answer.

Short version: use the right tool for the job.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#43

Post by je_bailey »

I don't think it's a paradigm shift. There's always been a desire to have some sort of magical tool or platform that would eliminate the high cost of a developer. The problem that these companies encounter is that these tools are quick to improve the baseline but they come at a cost of making their baseline the same as other peoples baseline. If they want something unique, or compelling, that's above and beyond then they would need custom work and that means some form of development

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#44

Post by dagw »

nicebill8 wrote: post #25

As a programmer, I've got a love for code but I have to accept that this is going to be the future for 90% of consumer-facing apps. The most common abstractions for the most common use-cases are already built and they're going to stay that way in my opinion. Once the "hard thinking" work is done building these abstractions, it's just a matter of connecting the dots to bring a product to market in . While there's been…

I'm a programmer who does a lot of "no code" development and find those tools very productive for many of the problems I deal with. And I observe every day the people who know "programming" can use those tools far more effectively and come up with far better solutions and solve far harder problems than the people who cannot program, but just learned the tool.

The hard part of programming is computational thinking, and coming up with novel ways to string the right algorithms together to get the result the client needs, not typing vs dragging and dropping.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#45

Post by ARandumGuy »

The fundamental problem with any no-code type solution is balancing how complicated the system is. If a no-code system is too simple, then you'll need a programmer whenever you need to do something not offered by the no-code system. If it's too complicated, then you might as well just use an actual programming language.

Obviously, there are use cases for these type of systems. Many businesses only need a simple website, and there are a lot of problems out there where an off the shelf solution will suffice. However, I doubt no-code is going to make any meaningful impact on software development. The world is full of problems too complicated to solve with off the shelf solutions, and those problems will need a programmer to write some code.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#46

Post by kwhitefoot »

There is no such thing. There are simply different representations of 'code'.

Those who promote 'no code' solutions always seem to think that just because one does not edit with a text editor that there is no need to design the solution or to debug it.

One is still developing, just using different tools.

For some subset of problems it might indeed enable someone who is not a programmer to create a solution just as Excel enabled millions of people to do just that. Unfortunately one usually finds a little later that the solution has the shape of the tools used to create it, that because the tool could do something in a certain way that is the way that is chosen rather than choosing the tool to fit the intended solution.

You end up with people creating databases in Excel because Excel is what they had.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#48

Post by WA »

I mean, what is programming? It’s describing the rules of a system and all edge cases. For some stuff it makes sense to combine rule descriptions into Lego blocks. At some point, the Lego blocks become too big to be useful and you need fine-grained control over the rules you want to implement.

If you can combine big Lego blocks into something useful, that sounds great.

If you need more fine-grained control, you need smaller blocks.

And that is the spectrum from assembly to higher level languages to platforms to libraries to frameworks to low-code tools to no-code tools. Pick what works for your use-case.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#49

Post by osrec »

It's okay, but by its very nature, it's not as flexible as code. Often I see an argument describing low-code tools as "Pareto efficient", but even that turns out to be a false economy once your use case becomes a little more complex.

Generally speaking, if you're doing something beyond building a simple form or table, and have some serious business logic to implement, in my experience, code is the only way to go. Anything else feels somewhat sub-optimal.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#50

Post by z5h »

Code is simply a way we formalize requirements to the specificity required for a computer to fulfill and honor them. So a developer's job is to make vague requirements more specific via the coding process. Find another way of moving to an equivalent representation of every detail captured in code, and call it anything you like.
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