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Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

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Re: Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

#41

Post by nicoburns »

endisneigh wrote: post #37
nicoburns wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the candidate applies to the wrong one, but would be suitable for a different one. At that point it's not much different to just having a range on their in the first place.

it's completely different - Google for example will down level you based on performance. if you have candidates that have the same job with wildly different salaries which just exacerbates arbitrary inequities. the range solution also creates problems when handling promotions the one who benefits the most from the "range" solution is the employer, really.

> if you have candidates that have the same job with wildly different salaries

How do you classify something as the same job versus a different job though? Two developers may have roughly similar responsibilities but one may be much better than the other. And it would be reasonable to pay them more in those circumstances, but it's very hard to quantify that objectively.

Also, Google is a huge company so they can advertise 5 jobs at different levels and fill them all. Whereas smaller companies may want someone and not be too sure about what level they need: it may depend more on who they can get. They can't afford to be too picky.

Re: Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

#42

Post by asdff »

Oh yes it is. In my field, usually that means purchasing requires dealing with some fast speaking salesperson to 'hook you up' with their great deal so they can get a nice commission and you get an inflated price just within the maximum budget you've earmarked. It's straight out of the used car salesman playbook, trying to size up your mark to see how much juice you can squeeze out of them. If pricing was done logically scaled to some size, it would just be listed as such. If I see "call for price" or something like that, I spend earnest effort looking for a competitor that deals with me straight without having my contact info first.

Re: Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

#44

Post by chrismatheson »

is_true wrote: post #23
yoz-y wrote: post #11

I don't remember where, but once I read an article saying something like "If Space-X can have price calculator right on their side, so can your shitty SaaS solution."

That's really shortsighted. A SaaS company could meet an amount of new requirements that I'm sure SpaceX can't.

Sure, but they could also give me some idea of what the core product costs without my specific tweaks

Re: Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

#46

Post by asdff »

codegeek wrote: post #16
ouid wrote: post #10

Absolutely. Try to imagine how much different the world would be if, for instance, job listings were required to post their compensation exactly.

I prefer ranges. Not all candidates are same even for the same job. If I hire an A player, I may give them a bit more to sweeten the deal. If I hire a B player (who is good enough for the role but is not an A player so far), I would negotiate the compensation a little early on as long as it is something the candidate B accepts. Range gives you the floor (if they are honest). Let's say the range is 65k-85K, then its f…

What I don't like about this is that people really aren't A players or B players in practice. It's not a video game, real life is messy. In some situations, a B player can be an A player, and vice versa. Past performance does not indicate future results, and in my experience usually the best worker is the one who has simply been given a chance and the freedom to self optimize their job for some months, and rarely are they the most qualified applicant. No one is good at their job on day one nor should they be expected to be.

There are too many confounding variables involved with the very abstract concept of 'work effort,' for it to be reliably used. Instead, set a price for the role, and if someone is exceeding their anticipated productivity and putting more work on their back, give them a raise.

Re: Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

#47

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

neltnerb wrote: post #29
tylerrobinson wrote: post #19

Wow! A lot of fast replies here without much substance. "A dark pattern is "a user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things, such as buying overpriced insurance with their purchase or signing up for recurring bills"."[0] By this definition, no, it's not a dark pattern. It may be a pricing strategy that you don't like, but not a dark pattern. It's an invitation to start a full discuss…

I almost only see this for very expensive non-commodity products. I think in these industries the vendors at least believe that they are more likely to make a sale if they do it person-to-person over the phone. I don't know if they're right or not, when I see that my first step is to look for other vendors. But I think that they simply believe that they are more likely to make a sale if they screen for only people in…

There's a vendor I deal with that does something like this. They have an online catalog and prices are listed, but to buy something, I have to email them and then they respond with a link to their fulfillment partner.

At first I thought it was really dumb, because they're in a technology sector and deal with engineers all the time. Why not just take me to a shopping cart? But then I got an email that said something like "HeyLaughingBoy, I noticed you bought 5 units of $SENSOR in July and another 10 units in August. Would you like to discuss volume prices going forward? We can scale the price to your estimated annual volume..."

I thought it was a great idea to get a dialog going with someone who looks small time (me) but could become a major customer. This way, they build a relationship with me before I just start looking for someone cheaper as my sales grow. If they just listed prices at preset volume levels, that would never happen.

Re: Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

#48

Post by true_religion »

asdff wrote: post #46
codegeek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer ranges. Not all candidates are same even for the same job. If I hire an A player, I may give them a bit more to sweeten the deal. If I hire a B player (who is good enough for the role but is not an A player so far), I would negotiate the compensation a little early on as long as it is something the candidate B accepts. Range gives you the floor (if they are honest). Let's say the range is 65k-85K, then its f…

What I don't like about this is that people really aren't A players or B players in practice. It's not a video game, real life is messy. In some situations, a B player can be an A player, and vice versa. Past performance does not indicate future results, and in my experience usually the best worker is the one who has simply been given a chance and the freedom to self optimize their job for some months, and rarely are…

I think if you're at the level of A or B player, then you're already at the top of the field. There's a lot more letters in the alphabet, and a lot more difference in experience that people can have.

My company for example will hire F players. We'll even hire G or H players too. Those are the roles that we are actually hiring for when we open up an entry level job. However if a C player comes along, naive and fresh out of a masters program, we'll also snap them up and pay an absolutely exorbitant rate compared to the normal salary range for their position because we want them to stay for at least 5 years. In 5 years, if they improve they'll be A or B players and we'll bump them into Director level roles in the hope that they will stay due to the responsibility and freedom the role offers even though we can't pay Google-level salaries.

Having a posted initial salary will just scare off a candidate who is unnaturally good versus the rest of the local market.

Disclaimer:

I like to think I am/was a solid C rated developer. If you are an A player, I bow to your wisdom. I have never applied to FAANG. I know I wouldn't make even the phone cut.

Re: Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

#49

Post by irscott »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28
horsawlarway wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree with you, but I think there are forms of this that I would definitely consider dark patterns - The one that immediately jumps to mind is "Add this item to your cart to see the price". There's no good intention there, just manipulation. The statistics show a user is more likely to buy an item after adding it to their cart, and this forces them to do that before revealing pertinent information to the use…

Showing a price after an item is in the cart can be a contract hack around pricing contracts with manufacturers or distributors, where you’re not able to directly advertise your “best” price.

Most of the time this is referred to as a MAP agreement and companies can be real aggressive in enforcing them.

Re: Ask HN: Is “contact us for pricing” a dark pattern?

#50

Post by dccoolgai »

No, it is not. Go listen to the Planet Money episode about why old veterans hate the red cross. When you don't have enough information to set price well, you can do a ton of damage to your company by setting it too low. It's not always a "great strategy" but it's not a dark pattern in and of itself.
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