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Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

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Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#41

Post by 2Gkashmiri »

jlokier wrote: post #21
parliament32 wrote: post #9

By using your conversation metadata, to sell you better ads or sell the data to other advertisers. >b-b-but it's encrypted! Doesn't matter. They know who you are, because your account is linked to your FB account (either directly or just by matching your phone number). Then you send them your full contact list when you install the app (have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission?). Then they can see…

> have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission? Yes, that's how I use WhatsApp. It sucks because all I see is conversations and calls from phone numbers without names. But I don't trust WhatsApp enough to share my whole contacts list with them. I would be happy to grant permission for individual number-name associations to be visible to WhatsApp, if that was possible. It's the contacts list as a whol…

whoa. this is one reason i am STILL NOT ON WHATSAPP..... seriously.

this comes from back when truecaller was introduced and i had an iphone. saw permission to access contacts. never used the app, even today. same for whatsapp or facebook. call me paranoid, but i don't want being "linked". same reason i dont have a google account and even though i have been using an android device for the past 2 years, there is no account and i use something like aurora store to get apps. works decent enough

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#42

Post by Talinx »

parliament32 wrote: post #24
hbcondo714 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>b-b-but it's encrypted! Facebook actually updated their LIMITATIONS OF KEY METRICS AND OTHER DATA section at the top of their annual and quarterly reports[1] this year to say that "as a result of limited visibility into encrypted products, we have fewer data signals from WhatsApp user accounts and primarily rely on phone numbers and device information to match WhatsApp user accounts with accounts on our other produc…

Yes, we can all agree that E2EE means FB isn't reading your messages and using that data (like they do, for example, in FB Messenger / IG messages). But the metadata is still valuable, and not encrypted, and is probably how they're making money with the product.

A closed-source App could send the private key to a server. I hope WhatsApp doesn't do that.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#43

Post by zbuf »

jlokier wrote: post #21
parliament32 wrote: post #9

By using your conversation metadata, to sell you better ads or sell the data to other advertisers. >b-b-but it's encrypted! Doesn't matter. They know who you are, because your account is linked to your FB account (either directly or just by matching your phone number). Then you send them your full contact list when you install the app (have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission?). Then they can see…

> have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission? Yes, that's how I use WhatsApp. It sucks because all I see is conversations and calls from phone numbers without names. But I don't trust WhatsApp enough to share my whole contacts list with them. I would be happy to grant permission for individual number-name associations to be visible to WhatsApp, if that was possible. It's the contacts list as a whol…

> But I don't trust WhatsApp enough to share my whole contacts list with them.

Trouble is, you don't have to. Your friends have already shared /their/ contact lists.

You're already a node in the network, even if you've never logged in.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#44

Post by ksec »

cyrrus wrote: post #35
arjunvpaul wrote: post #18

From Businesses - small and large. Using the WhatsApp API. That alone is a multi-billion dollar opportunity. For example, people like my startup ( https://www.zoko.io ) provides software that enable folks to run any business on (only) WhatsApp. WhatsApp would make money by - charging for certain types of messages sent via the API (already doing it) - from ads on the WhatsApp, Facebook and Instagram Platform that clic…

Those are some big words but.... the chat market is flooded. I barely use Whats App as well as most people I know so they are far from ubiquitous. Why then? Why not any other chat app, or even messenger with far greater reach and just as many resources?

WhatsApp are just not used as much in US. As a matter of fact no one knew what was WhatsApp in US before Facebook acquire them.

It was pretty much the days of AIM and MSN. When the rest of the world was on MSN. US was still on AIM.

Without the China Market WhatsApp has 1.6B user.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#45

Post by ksec »

At the moment Zero. WhatsApp on its own doesn't make any money at all. Apart from some meta data about you and your contact.

But WhatsApp on itself doesn't cost much to run. They had 1B user and was running it on 50 Big FreeBSD Box. With a tiny engineering team. And that was with Hardware and Software from 6 - 7 years ago. Modern Hardware with all the BEAM VM improvement would made it even lower. ( Kind of Amazing if you think about it )

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#46

Post by jlokier »

zbuf wrote: post #43
jlokier wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission? Yes, that's how I use WhatsApp. It sucks because all I see is conversations and calls from phone numbers without names. But I don't trust WhatsApp enough to share my whole contacts list with them. I would be happy to grant permission for individual number-name associations to be visible to WhatsApp, if that was possible. It's the contacts list as a whol…

> But I don't trust WhatsApp enough to share my whole contacts list with them. Trouble is, you don't have to. Your friends have already shared /their/ contact lists. You're already a node in the network, even if you've never logged in.

There may be a node. But even so, it is a myth that the social networks know everything from other people's shared information.

WhatsApp does not know which people/entities I have in my contacts list.

That cannot be deduced from other ordinary people's lists.

It is a two-sided issue. On the one side: We should understand that we can't completely hide our personal information because other people share it without our consent, and that we should all be more careful what we share because it can harm other people, and is without their consent.

But on the other side: There is still value in limiting what we share about ourselves and others, because what other people share is limited and does not produce as complete a picture as when we add more to it ourselves.

So, WhatsApp knows about specific contacts other people have entered which include me, but it doesn't know what's on my full list. There are many things which can be estimated from my contacts list which I don't want to share and can't be deduced from other people's contact lists:

- Which banks I bank with.

- Which credit cards I have.

- Which recruiters I've been talking with.

- Which prospective companies I've talked with about getting a job.

- Which clients I'm doing business with or have done.

- Which taxi firms I use.

- Which restaurants I know well enough to have in my list.

- Which lenders I'm borrowing from.

- Which debt collectors I'm talking or not talking with.

- Which people I have a secret affair with, who are smart enough not to share their contacts list.

- Which journalists I'm in touch with, who are smart enough not to share their contacts list.

- Who I'm organising protests against the state with, who are smart enough not to share their contacts list.

- Who I know well enough to have not just their number but also their email address and other contacts, home address, notes etc.

- Which other communication applications I'm using if those store contacts in the list.

As well as the number of each of the above, to suggest which aspects of my life to target for advertising, policing, or general intimidation and election manipulation.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#47

Post by jlokier »

2Gkashmiri wrote: post #41
jlokier wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission? Yes, that's how I use WhatsApp. It sucks because all I see is conversations and calls from phone numbers without names. But I don't trust WhatsApp enough to share my whole contacts list with them. I would be happy to grant permission for individual number-name associations to be visible to WhatsApp, if that was possible. It's the contacts list as a whol…

whoa. this is one reason i am STILL NOT ON WHATSAPP..... seriously. this comes from back when truecaller was introduced and i had an iphone. saw permission to access contacts. never used the app, even today. same for whatsapp or facebook. call me paranoid, but i don't want being "linked". same reason i dont have a google account and even though i have been using an android device for the past 2 years, there is no acc…

I have a "junk" Google account on my phone. It's not linked to anything except my phone. I don't even know the account name.

It means I can't use in-app payments, and will never pay for an app, but at least I can download essential (to me) apps like banking apps from the Play store.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#48

Post by arjunvpaul »

cyrrus wrote: post #35
arjunvpaul wrote: post #18

From Businesses - small and large. Using the WhatsApp API. That alone is a multi-billion dollar opportunity. For example, people like my startup ( https://www.zoko.io ) provides software that enable folks to run any business on (only) WhatsApp. WhatsApp would make money by - charging for certain types of messages sent via the API (already doing it) - from ads on the WhatsApp, Facebook and Instagram Platform that clic…

Those are some big words but.... the chat market is flooded. I barely use Whats App as well as most people I know so they are far from ubiquitous. Why then? Why not any other chat app, or even messenger with far greater reach and just as many resources?

In those United States, you would be right to think so. Yes, there are other chat apps. A flood? No. A (cess)pool, maybe.

Outside of WhatsApp (2 Billion Monthly Active Users), Messenger (1.4 Billion MAU) and WeChat (1.2 Billion MAU) the others stand little chance of building and benefiting from being a platform.

Setting aside WeChat and China, if you now look at the next billion users who are going to be using the internet for the first time, WhatsApp is the lens through which they see the internet - they communicate, consume news and entertainment, buy and sell things, get medical advice, even fall in love via WhatsApp.

In India, where a significant portion of that #nextbillion are gonna come from, Messenger has ~100M users and WhatsApp has ~500M MAU. Similar multiples play out in "WhatsApp first" markets like Latin America, most parts of Asia.

Case in Point: Even though it had nothing to do with our business, we recently helped hack together a solution to conduct two, 20-question, exams for 100K students in an Indian State. Simply because every family had WhatsApp (and nothing else). Messenger simply doesn't have the reach in the emerging world.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#49

Post by avinassh »

ksec wrote: post #45

At the moment Zero. WhatsApp on its own doesn't make any money at all. Apart from some meta data about you and your contact. But WhatsApp on itself doesn't cost much to run. They had 1B user and was running it on 50 Big FreeBSD Box. With a tiny engineering team. And that was with Hardware and Software from 6 - 7 years ago. Modern Hardware with all the BEAM VM improvement would made it even lower. ( Kind of Amazing if…

Do you have any source for this? And more information about their infra costs?

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#50

Post by parliament32 »

Talinx wrote: post #42
parliament32 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we can all agree that E2EE means FB isn't reading your messages and using that data (like they do, for example, in FB Messenger / IG messages). But the metadata is still valuable, and not encrypted, and is probably how they're making money with the product.

A closed-source App could send the private key to a server. I hope WhatsApp doesn't do that.

They absolutely could. But, given the popularity of FB properties, I'm sure there are several groups who decompile their releases on a regular basis and I'm sure there'd be a lot of screaming if the E2EE wasn't implemented properly (see: the Zoom E2EE debacle).
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