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Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

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Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#41

Post by Natales »

My CTO has been researching this (large 30K emp. software company) and the current consensus seems to indicate that ~60% of the workforce is expected to continue to work remote. Offices will be redesigned as collaboration spaces, where (when it becomes safe) people will converge from time to time for specific activities, but the follow-up and rest of the work will be remote.

I fully support this, and I to a degree, I've been doing it for 6 years already, and I find it extremely effective.

And no, I would not take a pay cut. Companies pay for what I bring to the table. As long as they get what they want from me, it should be irrelevant where am I.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#42

Post by RIMR »

Natales wrote: post #41

My CTO has been researching this (large 30K emp. software company) and the current consensus seems to indicate that ~60% of the workforce is expected to continue to work remote. Offices will be redesigned as collaboration spaces, where (when it becomes safe) people will converge from time to time for specific activities, but the follow-up and rest of the work will be remote. I fully support this, and I to a degree, I…

I actually make the argument that you should pay me more if I work from home.

If you aren't going to be paying for a workspace, a lab environment, electricity, etc. for me to do my job, I'll be the one paying for those things, so give me more money to pay for it.

If you're not going to pay for an office for me to use, pay me enough to afford a larger home with a dedicated office space.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#43

Post by m-p-3 »

RIMR wrote: post #42
Natales wrote: post #41

My CTO has been researching this (large 30K emp. software company) and the current consensus seems to indicate that ~60% of the workforce is expected to continue to work remote. Offices will be redesigned as collaboration spaces, where (when it becomes safe) people will converge from time to time for specific activities, but the follow-up and rest of the work will be remote. I fully support this, and I to a degree, I…

I actually make the argument that you should pay me more if I work from home. If you aren't going to be paying for a workspace, a lab environment, electricity, etc. for me to do my job, I'll be the one paying for those things, so give me more money to pay for it. If you're not going to pay for an office for me to use, pay me enough to afford a larger home with a dedicated office space.

I get tax credits for using my home as a work environment, so I can expense a portion of my Internet bill and some other stuff.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#44

Post by stephenr »

Udik wrote: post #22
stephenr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The salient point for ops argument is that the company isn’t providing utilities, isn’t providing parking, cleaning etc etc. Working from home saves the company money. A company that is good to employees would recognise this and return at least some of the savings via payroll or reimbursements.

The company is still paying you the same although you are no longer commuting though. Before you wasted between 1/2 hour and 2 hours every day just moving back and forth from the office (formally unpaid time). Now you can get out of your bed ten minutes before the first meeting in the day or be grocery shopping in your neighborhood five minutes after your work day ended.

That is irrelevant. Should a person who literally lived next door to the office then be paid the same because they saved less on commuting? What if I “work from home” but actually choose to commute to work from a storage facility on the other side of town?

No. Commuting is irrelevant to the cost because it’s unrelated to the work or the cost of doing business.

The cost of utilities not required on site is a literal and measurable saving for the business. That cost is directly transferred to the employee.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#45

Post by stephenr »

gumby wrote: post #21
pc86 wrote: post #10

The location from which I am working is irrelevant with respect to the value I'm providing to the company. If anything I should earn more working from home, because I'm paying more for utilities and my employer isn't paying utilities for me at the office.

That’s true for some jobs. But some jobs consist of talking to people.

You might want to look into this invention, it’s called the telephone. It lets you talk to people over great distances. They even have ones now that have no cord and even let you see the person you’re talking to.

What a time to be alive.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#46

Post by labcomputer »

freeone3000 wrote: post #26
labcomputer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Traffic and commuting is one of the worst little things of daily life. It's dangerous. It ruins the environment. Parking sucks. I agree, but commuting has significant mental-health benefits. It provides a clear mental separation between "work" and "home". I and several of my coworkers have noticed that we never feel "off work" anymore. Work just bleeds into everything because there isn't that 30 minute period (enfo…

You can just... Make one. You can just make the division. You can turn off the work computer and walk away at five.

Not the same thing. You're still in the same physical space.

Again, that time on the bike/train/car provides head space to mentally context switch away from work time and into home time.

Plus, it's very easy to do "just one more" commit while you're boiling pasta for dinner.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#47

Post by UhDev »

SashaRuvin wrote: post #24

The one thing I can appreciate about working from home for so long is I haven't been sick this entire time. Open floor plans spread colds, flus, and stomach bugs around like wildfire, and it's nice to be out of the petri dish.

I miss taking sick days for no reason.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#48

Post by BjoernKW »

edogg wrote: post #30
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working from home is a lot less efficient than an ideal office. It's harder to debug things or pair program when needed, it's harder to grab someone's attention, it's easier to miscommunicate, and communication is a lot slower. You also don't get the same camaraderie as you would face to face, but the upside is that you also don't get distracted by attractive coworkers. YMMV. Your home can be your ideal office, and…

I’ve been WFH for 10 of the past 15 years. It is much harder to create a new billion dollar company if everyone is WFH, especially if there is a physical product as opposed to something that only manifests on screens. It is much harder to on board and mentor new co-workers. It is much harder to make a transition to the next position in your career, like a promotion or move within the company. It is much harder to dev…

Well, those might be dismissed as anecdotal examples but Automattic, Zapier, Basecamp and GitLab clearly show that remote-first or remote-only companies can be highly successful and efficient businesses with friendly, conducive work environments.

Re: Ask HN: Do you think 'normal' working will ever return?

#49

Post by BjoernKW »

muzani wrote: post #6

Let's address the elephant in the room: Working from home is a lot less efficient than an ideal office. It's harder to debug things or pair program when needed, it's harder to grab someone's attention, it's easier to miscommunicate, and communication is a lot slower. You also don't get the same camaraderie as you would face to face, but the upside is that you also don't get distracted by attractive coworkers. However…

> Working from home is a lot less efficient than an ideal office.

Only if you try to reimplement the traditional office and its processes in a WFH setting. That's an endeavour that's bound to fail.

In remote-first settings communication works differently, especially in that ideally it should happen mostly asynchronously, i.e. as written communication, which has the huge additional benefit of avoiding information silos through readily available documentation and decision records.

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