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Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

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Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#41

Post by Max10101 »

wprapido wrote: post #34
FridgeSeal wrote: post #15

In what market? They've seriously struggled in Australia-there's a few stores here and there-mostly confined to large shopping centres, but they're not popular and I believe they were down to single-digit number of stores a few years ago.

They failed miserably in Israel. Opened recently in Italy and cater almost exclusively to tourists. The only place with good coffee where they are doing okayish that I'm aware of is Sweden. They also do rather well in Turkey among hipsters, tourists and rich local college kids. Yet, it's limited to Istanbul

Starbucks is not limited to İstanbul, they are in every major metro. I've been in Starbucks in İzmir, Ankara, and Kayseri, and I try to avoid Starbucks. And if crowds are any thing to go by, they are doing quite well for a very expensive place in a land of endless tea and coffee shops.

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#42

Post by mindcrime »

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #38

When you get a coffee-based drink at Starbucks, you can get that same exact drink anywhere on the planet at Starbucks and it will be nearly the same. They've applied the fast food business concepts to coffee. There is no need to improve the product at all, its not going to increase sales. Also, "better" coffee is subjective. Buy local and shunning big corporations probably impact people's attitudes more about local c…

When you get a coffee-based drink at Starbucks, you can get that same exact drink anywhere on the planet at Starbucks and it will be nearly the same.

And that factor is important to many people. Maybe surprisingly so to people who don't get that particular aspect. Example: a few years ago I was a consultant for a while, and I traveled a lot for work. Lots of time on airplanes and in airports and a lot of dragging myself off of airplanes late at night, jonesing for a cup of coffee, or dragging myself into the airport late, jonesing for coffee. And then exploring a new city on the first day, after dragging myself out of bed, jonesing for a cup of coffee. In all three cases, I knew that if I saw a Starbucks I could walk in and have a perfectly predictable experience.

And on those occasions that was exactly what I wanted. I didn't care about finding the "best cup of coffee in Portland" or "the best coffee shop in Chicago", etc. And I didn't have time to run around sampling all these little boutique places, hoping for some spiritual / transcendent experience.

Sure, the hardcore coffee snobs are gritting their teeth right now, and that's OK. What I want from a coffee shop (at times) and what you want are two different things. And that's OK.

That's not to say that there isn't a place for wandering around, exploring all the unique local coffee shops in whatever town/city you happen to be in. The point is just that the ubiquity and predictability of Starbucks is objectively a Good Thing to a certain group of people.

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#43

Post by [deleted] »

bigiain wrote: post #12

Starbucks aren't trying to "beat" specialty espresso places. They aren't even in competition with them really. https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and... "Starbucks goal is to become the Third Place in our daily lives. (i.e. Home, Work and Starbucks) “We want to provide all the comforts of your home and office. You can sit in a nice chair, talk on your phone, look out the window, surf the web… oh…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#44

Post by alphagrep12345 »

cpach wrote: post #21
cpach wrote: post #4

It’s not only about the coffee. How would they find good quality pastries and bread for 15000 stores? How would they create a unique and cozy atmosphere? Food doesn’t scale like that. It’s the same with restaurants.

PS. At least high quality food doesn’t scale like that.

Why not? Why can't high quality food scale?

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#45

Post by alphagrep12345 »

aaron695 wrote: post #22

> Majority of coffee fans say their local coffee shops make better coffee than starbucks. They are wrong. Are there any blind taste tests? It's harder than wine to test, but should be possible. But the premise is incorrect anyway. Enjoyment of food and drink is tied to way more than taste. History matters. Sight matters. The story matters. Variety matters. Routine matters. The people matter. The trick is to get the c…

Interesting. I didn't know about this. Wow!

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#46

Post by alphagrep12345 »

Most conclusions from the comments seem to be that

1. Sourcing quality beans is costly. 2. Majority of the people don't care.

For 1 - For a single coffee shop, quality of beans is not the most significant part of price. They can increase ~10c per cup and get much better quality of coffee[0]. However, this might be tough as Starbucks need to source same beans across the world.

For 2 - Following 1, if you only need to increase 10c, and get significantly better coffee, why won't you do it? You're already the leader in 3rd spaces, why not be a leader in coffee too, for a much better moat?

[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SM2Jrot-ZM

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#47

Post by blaser-waffle »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #15

In what market? They've seriously struggled in Australia-there's a few stores here and there-mostly confined to large shopping centres, but they're not popular and I believe they were down to single-digit number of stores a few years ago.

When I lived in Melbourne I was blown away by the coffee culture there. They took it damn seriously, and the local places were amazing. Even the random dudes in vans with an expresso machine in the back that were parked outside of parks/venues/busy areas were slinging primo stuff.

Hands-down best coffee I had in the Oz, though, was in Perth (Northbridge area). There was a tiny hole in the wall coffee shop next to a spice market that was amazing.

If the rest of the Oz is like either of those 2 locales, I can see why S-bux would fail.

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#48

Post by blaser-waffle »

Same reason that McDonald's loses ground to high-end burger joints -- they're about broad, consistent mid-level quality.

If you want something fancy, specialized, or something that isn't designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator, then you go to a specialty / local place.

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#49

Post by alphagrep12345 »

keiferski wrote: post #19

Starbucks' goal, like all chains, is not quality per se, but consistency. The coffee at one Starbucks should taste the same as at any other, whether it's in Tokyo or Times Square. To achieve that consistency, they tend to over-roast their beans -- to the everlasting chagrin of coffee lovers everywhere.

How does over-roasting help with consistency?

On a similar note, dunkin serves light roasts. I'd presume they also want consistency?

Re: Ask HN: Why doesn't Starbucks beat local coffee shops?

#50

Post by keiferski »

alphagrep12345 wrote: post #49
keiferski wrote: post #19

Starbucks' goal, like all chains, is not quality per se, but consistency. The coffee at one Starbucks should taste the same as at any other, whether it's in Tokyo or Times Square. To achieve that consistency, they tend to over-roast their beans -- to the everlasting chagrin of coffee lovers everywhere.

How does over-roasting help with consistency? On a similar note, dunkin serves light roasts. I'd presume they also want consistency?

It’s my understanding that Starbucks universally over-roasts their coffee to keep it consistent. Normally the roast time would depend on each individual batch.

Presumably they over-roast it because the most popular drinks have a lot of sugars and creams (Frappuccinos, etc.) so the coffee needs to be stronger. So, it’s not the over-roasting that makes it consistent, but the fact that every branch roasts it the same way.

Dunkin on the other hand seems to make a serious portion of their income from those boxes and their light roast black coffee, so they maintain consistency with a shorter roast time.

Of course most coffee places have various beans these days and this doesn’t always apply.

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