Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

news.ycombinator.com

41–50 of 87 posts

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#41

This is pretty much impossible to debunk because: A) Given Facebooks policy of A/B testing, it almost certainly isn't listening all the time. and more importantly, B) Now that everyone is talking about it, Facebook would have been stupid NOT to turn it off at least for now.

Would they even take a chance on this with anyone knowing it’ll eventually be discovered or reverse engineered? Why not take their account at face value? (We’ve built AI that is so smart that it can predict your conversations).

>(We’ve built AI that is so smart that it can predict your conversations)

We've built AI that can do a great job of slicing and restitching your old conversation into responses that are plausible responses to input sentences.

Whether that's good at predicting a conversations depends a lot on the conversationalist you're attempting to emulate using that technique.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#42

Every one of my friends, including me, has a story about how they used a phrase in conversation that they don't typically say ("Renaissance Faire" in my case, which I have never attended and generally have no interest in), and then seeing an ad for it on either Facebook or Instagram right afterwards. This is purely anecdotal, of course, but it is creepy anyway. The only way to stop this "myth", if it is one, is for F…

100% - I'm not sure why others are so dismissive. It's not that technically difficult, and FB has a reputation for being creepy. If only I could figure out how to get random one night stands out of my "People you may know" list...

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#43

The people who believe it’s listening would never accept even the most ironclad “proof” that it’s not. This is a hallmark of conspiracy theorists. So why bother?

I believe it's listening based on an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence reported all over the Internet. (Where there's smoke, there's fire.) Including by intelligent, scientifically-minded people.

At the same time, it wouldn't take much at all for me to believe otherwise: a simple blinded test where some people leave their phones in a room, researchers come and talk about some subject (absent the owners), then leave without ever interacting with the owners of the phone.

There are two ways to do the next part: The owners of the phone 1 week later could be asked if they've seen any facebook ads on (topic). A control group would have to be compared (where researchers didn't speak on the topic.)

Alternatively, the subjects of the study could be given 5 random topics when commencing the study and asked to record any ads they've seen on any of the 5 topics. The researchers could then speak on 1 of the 5 topics (differing from person to person) and a statistical analysis could be performed.

A "proof" is a statistically valid correlation between what the researchers talked about out and what the blinded subjects reported seeing ads about.

A refutation is a lack of such a correlation. Easy, and it would convince me personally.

By the way based on the anecdotal evidence I strongly expect this study to conclude "facebook is listening."

-

Note: there are a few loose ends to take care of. The researchers who are tasked with speaking on a subject are more likely to google it on their own phones. (Having been exposed to the topic), and those are in geographic vicinity. There are other similar possible mechanisms.

Perhaps the best approach is if subjects' phones are in a sound-proof vault and the researchers' speech is either fed into it via speaker/microphone, or not done so, but the researchers do not know for any specific phone whether it is able to hear them. (Making the study "double-blind", as neither the subjects nor the researchers know whether the subjects' phones have heard anything on a subject.).

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#44
post #23

My answer to this has always been "Why would they need to?" It drains battery, it sends a lot of data, and would be a huge scandal. But you are already telling them where you are, who you're with, and they have information about your credit, etc. Instead, I've been using this as an opportunity to teach people why big data is scary. In the past people often said they didn't care that Google could, and do, read their e…

Or in other words, they are listening, just not to your voice. Their product is an intelligence-gathering apparatus that works at scale without microphones or other traditional surveillance tools.

I'd phrase that as "they're watching" not listening. More like having a private eye tail you. They can't hear exactly what you say (well maybe) but they sure do see everything you do.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#45
Reply All, an entertaining podcast from Gimlet Media, tackled this topic a few weeks ago [0]. They explained the myth, explained how Facebook's advertising an be explained without surreptitious listening. In the last part they called believers in the myth and tried to convince them otherwise.

[0] https://gimletmedia.com/episode/109-facebook-spying/

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#46

My answer to this has always been "Why would they need to?" It drains battery, it sends a lot of data, and would be a huge scandal. But you are already telling them where you are, who you're with, and they have information about your credit, etc. Instead, I've been using this as an opportunity to teach people why big data is scary. In the past people often said they didn't care that Google could, and do, read their e…

I try to put my mind in the head of whoever at Facebook would be making this decision. Chief of marketing? Chief of Technology? Mark Zuckerberg himself? A product manager? Some director? And I believe all of them in fact would be perfectly fine with it - if it somehow helped them hit their quarterly bonuses or user growth numbers.

My point is that I do not believe constantly listening would significantly improve their profit. I don't think they'd gain much information. And I'm sure they've discussed it.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#47
is there any evidence cameras are used? I've recently been engaged in two activities in front of my phone and got scarily relevant ads that I've never seen before, and are can not be part of my graph. I am not on social networks and none of my browsing or search would be vaguely relevant.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#48
post #15

It’s trivial to debunk by observing that many people who say they’ve experienced this are using iPhones. On iOS, apps can’t silently use the microphone in the background. A background app using the microphone is always accompanied by a red status bar saying that they’re doing it. This doesn’t show Facebook listening, therefore we can conclude that they’re not, at least on iOS. It’s possible they might be doing it on…

given the below examples i'll contest that it'd be "trivial" to debunk on the iOS platform and also add that even if it were debunked on the iOS platform, that doesn't debunk the other platforms. why would they leave data on the table if they could scoop it up instead?

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#49
I think this is really something even more nefarious than background listening.

Facebook and Google are using machine learning and massive data sets about the mental worlds we inhabit when we think nobody is looking.

And these algorithms are optimizing for clicks in so many vectors of psychological need and vulnerability that it’s already become incomprehensible for how they can know the things we haven’t yet understood we will think about.

They know about our conversations because they know the searches of the people we talk to, and what they’re thinking about. What will be on the top of their mind.

There’s nothing to go looking for or debunk. It’s just the next step in the data collection experiment.

I’m guessing they’ll need to tone down the effectiveness of ad targeting, if they haven’t already.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#50

The lack of actual responses to your question here is a bit entertaining. "Of course they are not", "it's not possible", "iOS/Android is safe" etc. Almost like it is offensive to ask. I can't help but remember my incredulous reaction to ECHELON in the 90s and how it turned out to be not just true, but much worse than the original "conspiracy theory". A very relevant example: https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handl…

can't help but agree with you. people are scrambling to debunk an ill-defined phenomenon that's only exists anecdotally... and in the realm of those who ask "qui bono?" who benefits if "facebook is listening"? what are the incentives? the question of technical possibility is the first place people will go to... without realizing that if there is a will, there is a way.

Few question the feasibility of building a mechanism. The question is whether they’d try to hide any such mechanism in plain sight.

Native apps on a phone are not comparable to government spying on networks outside of your control. The attack vector in this case is entirely within the device in possession: the code, and interactions with the OS and hardware.

Entertaining the opposing view: If fb did build this, how is there no hard evidence of it? On iOS, their code is distributed via Apple, so they couldn’t doctor versions for specific users, and any attempt to build self modifying or self deleting mechanisms would be detected sooner or later for similar reasons.

Post reply on HN