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Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

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Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#41

Post by mikekchar »

jakecarpenter wrote: post #10

To me, it is about what they are able to create independently, and the value of the end product. Senior people have made the right mistakes, wasted weeks of time, and know what to avoid, what to embrace, and what to ignore. A senior dev can understand the requirements and figure out what is important and deliver something without a lot of external input.

I'm picky. For me that's an intermediate developer. What I want to see in a senior developer is that they make everybody else on the team more effective.

As I've gotten older, I've started to appreciate how much farther a good developer can go rather than just these things. I think the kinds of things you talk about are things that most people can accomplish in 5-10 years. But how do you differentiate between that and someone with 20-30 years of experience?

Because the industry has been expanding so fast, we have perpetually been in the situation where most programmers are younger. But I don't think it will be too long before you will see half your team having 20 years of experience. If you ask yourself, "How am I going to improve after I've worked 5-10 years" and "How much better can you get" I think it is instructive.

My experience has been that you can get a lot better, but that it's very hard to see the difference from the perspective of being a junior or intermediate developer.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#42

Post by tukelully »

CaRDiaK wrote: post #20
bbcbasic wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your definition because it is timeless and rings true. The same definition will apply in 10 or 20 years time when there are new fads in development processes, programming languages etc. I would add that the senior engineer has a mature approach to selecting/recommending tools and frameworks, based on what is most valuable for the business and the team, rather than was is cool, good for their career or whatever…

"selecting/recommending tools and frameworks, based on what is most valuable for the business and the team" This is so true, I would say it extends to style amongst other things also. Having worked seniors on teams who had to seemingly make problems "worthy" of their skill and time served. For example working on a large OO Monoliths where a senior started to add lots of "clever" functional code. When I started the qu…

It appears worth noting to the people arguing for functional programming over OO in response to this, that this is about toxicity within the team and maturity of the developer. Not programming style in so much as I can read.

It should also be mentioned that responses similar to the examples have approx. no substance, detract from the quality of the conversation, provides no value to the team, and will likely only decrease mutual trust and respect.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#43

Post by EGreg »

TurboHaskal wrote: post #26

When you are valuable and ask for a raise but they cannot give the amount expected because it's already Q4 so they give you the senior title instead. It can happen even with two years of experience.

Wait a sec, whats the significance of Q4? How do you think the timing works?

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#44

Post by sjclemmy »

gambiting wrote: post #32

I work at a major games company. For us, a "senior" is someone who can, on their own, design, implement, document and maintain a feature. An "intermediate" is someone who can do the above but with mentor help from a senior. Above that, it depends what you want to do. If you fancy managing people, you can be a team/tech lead, or if you don't, then there is the title of "expert"(only a handful of programmers who worked…

I quite like that definition. It's based on the ability to independently deliver value.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#45

Post by duaneb »

voltagex_ wrote: post #30
Steeeve wrote: post #27

My personal definitions: Junior: Can do it with guidance and/or clear and non-transitional specs Developer: Takes the ball and runs with it. Can walk a customer through requirements gathering and make recommendations. Will help guide junior developers. Senior Developer: Can architect a system well. Can communicate equally well between executives, salespeople, management, and end users. Can and will mentor lower level…

> Can walk a customer through requirements gathering and make recommendations Well yeah, I can do that, but isn't that normally the business analyst's job?

It really depends on the size of the company and how sales are done.

Also, maybe it's more about understanding the product? Just a thought.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#46

Post by amcrouch »

To me the senior title should be applied depending on the way you approach your role and not how you code.

As others have mentioned as a senior you can be left to implement changes without guidance, you will clean up issues as you come across them instead of leaving it to others, you suggest improvements, you make time to mentor and guide more junior members of the team, you know how to relate to muggles and you act like a team captain.

Knowing lots of different hosting environments and languages comes with experience. The approach you take to your role show's your all rounded skill set.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#47

Post by tukelully »

voltagex_ wrote: post #30
Steeeve wrote: post #27

My personal definitions: Junior: Can do it with guidance and/or clear and non-transitional specs Developer: Takes the ball and runs with it. Can walk a customer through requirements gathering and make recommendations. Will help guide junior developers. Senior Developer: Can architect a system well. Can communicate equally well between executives, salespeople, management, and end users. Can and will mentor lower level…

> Can walk a customer through requirements gathering and make recommendations Well yeah, I can do that, but isn't that normally the business analyst's job?

It depends on the organization.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#48

Post by onion2k »

astdb wrote: post #7

One aspect that would separate a 'senior' engineer from the rest would be initiative, leadership and mentoring ability. These are the engineers who go the extra mile to ensure that the team gets stuff done, and assistance and guidance is provided where required. A senior developer isn't just someone who knows a lot of stuff, but has a time-honed wisdom as well, which they can parlay into their leadership and mentorin…

In my experience, you can tell someone is ready for a senior developer role when they write good documentation without being asked. That shows that they understand their code, that they can explain what's happening, and they appreciate to requirement to communicate things to the rest of the team.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#49

Post by ghuntley »

EGreg wrote: post #43
TurboHaskal wrote: post #26

When you are valuable and ask for a raise but they cannot give the amount expected because it's already Q4 so they give you the senior title instead. It can happen even with two years of experience.

Wait a sec, whats the significance of Q4? How do you think the timing works?

The budget has been consumed; business focused on making financial statements look good before being released to the public market for dissemination. At large corp scale, you'll experience shenanigans such as cancelling all flights/travel (unless it has C-level approval) even if it means a loss of potential future sales revenue / blocking entire teams who end up getting paid to sit there and do nothing until the quarter ends.

Re: Ask HN: When are you considered a “senior” programmer?

#50

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

As a CTO or team lead senior programmers to me were those who understood the business and the businesss side of things and could make trade offs (beside the technical experience).

Another aspect that seperates seniors is their ability to talk and present to senior or top management.

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