Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 64 posts

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#41

Post by kohanz »

TheCowboy wrote: post #21

If you're asking this as a hardcore chess player interested in getting into programming, then you should just jump in and give it a try. If you are trying to play chess to increase your "programmer's IQ" then I would recommend passing. I think the honest way to think of this is that: Playing chess is a really good way of figuring out who is good at playing chess. But, the abilities and aptitudes that often help aid b…

If you believe that "everything is known" when playing the game of chess, I suggest you challenge Magnus Carlsen for the title of best player in the world right now!

edit #2

Just thought of the perfect (pardon the pun) analogy. Chess has perfect information in the same way that a large code-base with 500k lines of code has perfect information. When I ask you how much time it will take to implement or refactor feature X, do you think you'll have enough time to read and learn the entire code-base before answering? How you approach that problem is almost exactly how you think through a position in chess.

edit #1

(tldr; chess teaches you to evaluate an overwhelming large number of options to evaulate and choose what you think is the best one in a reasonable amount of time, without having all the answers)

In all seriousness, the ability of human reasoning is finite and the skills that we apply to chess to deal with the seemingly infinite problem space apply very much to other things like programming. When we decide not to thinking deeply (e.g. multiple moves in) about a certain line of moves, it is because we do not deem them worthy of further thought, in the same way that I would, at an early stage, discard the option of refactoring an entire code base because, on the surface, the cost-benefit analysis is just too lousy. Also, in the same way that I can only think about 15-20 moves ahead at best along certain decision trees, I can only foresee and estimate so much of a software project before the limits of my knowledge and prediction power fail.

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#42

Post by johnloeber »

I used to play chess somewhat seriously, though I focused on the Chess960 variant (I think it's a much more interesting game).

My opinion is that the only real predictor of how good someone is at chess is how much they have practiced, and conversely, the only thing that playing chess makes you better at is playing chess.

I've sunk a few hundred hours into playing chess, and the conclusion I arrived at was that the skills and mode of thinking cultivated by playing chess are largely non-transferable. Granted, playing chess has given me a few analogies for thinking about certain real-life situations, but I learned those in my first few hours of play.

Ultimately, I stopped playing chess. Perhaps this is an unorthodox opinion, but chess ended up being something I don't want to be extremely good at, simply because that requires a great deal of time investment, and I view the time I spent playing chess as largely wasted. I grew bored with the limited and mechanical nature of the game and quit. Haven't looked back. I think the reputation of chess as one of the greatest "thinking games" is severely undeserved. The vast majority of the game is about routine and mechanical/technical formalisms.

If you wish to practice your thinking or programming skills, there are much better ways for you to use your time (programming is one).

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#43

Post by EvilPopsicleDog »

zwischenzug wrote: post #35
TheCowboy wrote: post #21

If you're asking this as a hardcore chess player interested in getting into programming, then you should just jump in and give it a try. If you are trying to play chess to increase your "programmer's IQ" then I would recommend passing. I think the honest way to think of this is that: Playing chess is a really good way of figuring out who is good at playing chess. But, the abilities and aptitudes that often help aid b…

I've never understood the 'imperfect information' thing when discussing chess. Chess _as played by people_ is full of hunches, uncertainty, prejudice, intimidation. Just look at how Kasparov played or Lasker, to see how important psychology is to chess. Or go down to Washington Square Gardens and play under the glare of dozens of people tutting at your every move. It's so much more than an abstract problem.

Yes, but the possible input to a chess game is strictly limited - one player cannot just change the way a piece moves or introduce a new piece, and thus, it is not taken into account in any strategy. These sorts things must be taken into account when programming.

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#44

Post by couchand »

zwischenzug wrote: post #35
TheCowboy wrote: post #21

If you're asking this as a hardcore chess player interested in getting into programming, then you should just jump in and give it a try. If you are trying to play chess to increase your "programmer's IQ" then I would recommend passing. I think the honest way to think of this is that: Playing chess is a really good way of figuring out who is good at playing chess. But, the abilities and aptitudes that often help aid b…

I've never understood the 'imperfect information' thing when discussing chess. Chess _as played by people_ is full of hunches, uncertainty, prejudice, intimidation. Just look at how Kasparov played or Lasker, to see how important psychology is to chess. Or go down to Washington Square Gardens and play under the glare of dozens of people tutting at your every move. It's so much more than an abstract problem.

Perfect information doesn't preclude the human element. It is a technical designation: each player has the entire knowledge of the game history up to and including the current state.

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#45

Post by stonemetal »

profinger wrote: post #40
TheCowboy wrote: post #21

If you're asking this as a hardcore chess player interested in getting into programming, then you should just jump in and give it a try. If you are trying to play chess to increase your "programmer's IQ" then I would recommend passing. I think the honest way to think of this is that: Playing chess is a really good way of figuring out who is good at playing chess. But, the abilities and aptitudes that often help aid b…

I don't understand the imperfect information thing. The whole game is assuming what the other player is attempting to do. Can't the other player not acting how you predicted be considered a bug? Or is this more formally defined than I'm aware of?

Information in this instance is the current (and past) state of the game. Poker is an imperfect information game because you can't see your opponents cards, and you can't see the cards in the deck. Chess is a perfect information game because you know where every piece is, nothing is hidden.

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#46

Post by olympus »

kohanz wrote: post #41
TheCowboy wrote: post #21

If you're asking this as a hardcore chess player interested in getting into programming, then you should just jump in and give it a try. If you are trying to play chess to increase your "programmer's IQ" then I would recommend passing. I think the honest way to think of this is that: Playing chess is a really good way of figuring out who is good at playing chess. But, the abilities and aptitudes that often help aid b…

If you believe that "everything is known" when playing the game of chess, I suggest you challenge Magnus Carlsen for the title of best player in the world right now! edit #2 Just thought of the perfect (pardon the pun) analogy. Chess has perfect information in the same way that a large code-base with 500k lines of code has perfect information. When I ask you how much time it will take to implement or refactor feature…

I don't think this is quite what was meant by the "everything is known" comment. I may not know what Carlsen is going to do for his next move, but I could certainly come up with a list of every possible move. The rules of chess won't change in the middle of the game and he won't suddenly be able to castle twice.

Chess is a game of perfect information where nothing is hidden from either side. Theoretically the white player should be able to win or force a draw every single game. It just doesn't happen that way in real life because to construct a tree of every possible move and counter move and then pick the optimal branch is hopelessly complex with this game. But for checkers it's doable (the best checkers players will play flawlessly and games are won or lost on a single mistake), and you probably already have tic-tac-toe figured out.

Edit: dang, ninja edit where you just said almost everything I said.

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#47

Post by amenghra »

In general no. Learning/playing chess however requires being able to focus on a specific problem for long periods of time (2-4 hours), which is a good skill to have. I remember spending entire mornings studying the game as a kid.

I'm unsure if chess gave me the skill or if having be ability to focus made me enjoy the game.

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#48

Post by aerovistae »

johnloeber wrote: post #42

I used to play chess somewhat seriously, though I focused on the Chess960 variant (I think it's a much more interesting game). My opinion is that the only real predictor of how good someone is at chess is how much they have practiced, and conversely, the only thing that playing chess makes you better at is playing chess. I've sunk a few hundred hours into playing chess, and the conclusion I arrived at was that the sk…

I could not possibly agree more. I have always been confused by the bold assertions to the value of chess as the greatest game of all time.

Yes, it's over 1500 years old and continues to amuse, but checkers is even older, and there's card games, and then Monopoly is basically just real life, so, that counts as eldest. What I mean to say is that chess is just another game, and just happens to be one of the old ones. It's a great game! But it's not like the holy incarnation of everything a game should be.

For people who defend chess's value by pointing to the enormous game complexity, the number of possible games / moves / etc, the same exact thing can be said of Super Smash Brothers and countless other multiplayer video games. Is Super Smash Brothers the greatest game in history?? (yes)

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#49

Post by olympus »

To answer your question, some of the higher level skills may translate, but it isn't like a direct mapping of skills (i.e., a person who is good at TIG welding will almost definitely be good at soldering with little effort - it's all about heat management and metal flow).

Memorizing openings could mean that you will have an easier time learning standard libraries and syntax.

Realizing that some pieces can move certain ways that others cannot could make it easier to learn object-oriented programming.

Thinking several steps ahead and avoiding endgame stalemates could help you with loop-writing (or at least avoiding infinite loops).

But a lot of this is dependent on a particular language. I don't see chess being a lot of help with a functional language like Haskell. But an imperative language like C or an object oriented language like Java, sure. A good chess player will still have to study and learn like the rest of the world, but I'd put their chances of becoming a competent programmer above the middle of the general population.

Re: Ask HN: Do you play Chess?

#50

Post by zwischenzug »

couchand wrote: post #44
zwischenzug wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the 'imperfect information' thing when discussing chess. Chess _as played by people_ is full of hunches, uncertainty, prejudice, intimidation. Just look at how Kasparov played or Lasker, to see how important psychology is to chess. Or go down to Washington Square Gardens and play under the glare of dozens of people tutting at your every move. It's so much more than an abstract problem.

Perfect information doesn't preclude the human element. It is a technical designation: each player has the entire knowledge of the game history up to and including the current state.

The original quote was:

"Where it might frustrate a chess player, is that chess lacks an element of imperfect information."

Any chess player worth their salt deals with imperfect information, and has to manage risk, make kludges, pick imperfect paths, deal with the clock etc etc.

Post reply on HN