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Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

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Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#391

Post by Phileosopher »

justsomeoldguy wrote: post #166
tonetegeatinst wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a felon but grew up with everyone telling us that colleges would search our social media etc. A friend told me that the 2 important rules to surviving corporate environments is the following in no specific order. 1. Never lie to someone, and own what you did. Wordsmithing is a gray area but never lie, the reputation of not being truthful can follow you for decades. 2. Never volunteer information that isn't specif…

sounds reasonable, but I can't tell you how combative it is if you're applying for a job in a state that forbids them from asking if you have any felonies, and there it is on the job application, staring you in the face. so what are you going to do, tell them no? you won't get the job. tell the truth? you won't get the job. sue them? good luck. you'll need it and that does not get you the job and the settlement, if y…

NOTE: I'm in the USA, so it may only apply here.

It all depends on the framing of the situation. For myself, I frame it as a few of the following, context-depending on how it's asked:

* (on a webform) "not applicable" in writing * (do you have a felony?) I do, but it has absolutely nothing to do with my role (because it really doesn't). * (will the background check yield anything we should know?) you'll see something, but it has nothing to do with the job.

If they keep pressing, and seem simply hesitant, I refer them to a webpage that articulates the story for them. It's behind me, I've grown from it to where it doesn't define me, and I'm proud that it's behind me.

If they get weird for the rest of the interview, I simply say "thank you for your time, but I don't believe this will be a good fit, please let me know if you change your mind", and I walk out of there to avoid wasting another minute with their bigotry.

Once I hit the 7-year mark, that background check won't yank any database association to my legal fiction unless they wish to dig. At that point, I can simply say "nothing will show on my background check" and it's completely honest.

The reason this continues to be a problem in the USA is because people aren't confident in what they've come through. The stigma exists because employees fold over and continue letting employers feel they have the right to discriminate over what happened, irrespective of how that person changed from their experience. I see my opposing any condescension as an effort to resist a social structure that creates a second-class citizen.

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#392

Post by Phileosopher »

tommychillfiger wrote: post #350
Simon_ORourke wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do NOT recommend being upfront, unless there are no formal procedures in place and being honest actually helps. We are talking about your ability to feed and shelter yourself, so give up on the “honesty” thing. I have -never- been able to provide for myself after having been “honest”. [edit: after reading felonintexas let me update this. If someone point blank asks, tell them. Don’t volunteer this information. Th…

I'm generally someone who sees honesty as a virtue and have always been fairly open, at work and in my private life. I'm curious if you can expand on this a bit - i.e., why is it a disadvantage and what sort of pitfalls can it lead to? I've been in analytics for a few years now, and it seems like it has mostly been an advantage for me, but it's certainly possible I just don't know what I don't know.

A huge part about whether honesty hurts or helps is the framing that revolves around it.

In this case, it's a matter of social expectations driven by the timing of that honesty:

* If someone is a completely unfiltered person and says the information audaciously and openly, the interviewer may simply see they have nothing to hide.

* On the other hand, if the person looks anxious (which could literally be nothing more than PTSD), then awkwardly blurts out the information, they may be interpreted as having more to hide, making that honesty appear worse than it is. Ironically, that was probably the optics that got my felony in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#393

Post by jakderrida »

trogdor wrote: post #358
Simon_ORourke wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example - about 2005 I was a junior dev thinking I was about to make the cut to senior within the year, in a medium sized IT company. Let it slip accidentally to my boss that I used to install servers in racks in a previous role. Ended up being shoved into a "lateral move" into the systems engineering team because they couldn't hire quickly enough. Fast forward another six months and I get laid off after a migration…

I’m not sure that your experience should be generalized to a broad rule against volunteering “any information about yourself to anyone in the office beyond what is required to complete your job.” I used to work in finance. Volunteering personal information about myself led to a close friendship with the CFO of the bank I worked for. I did good work, but so did many other people. The CFO and I got along so well only b…

> I’m not sure that your experience should be generalized to a broad rule against volunteering “any information about yourself to anyone in the office beyond what is required to complete your job.”

While I don't have IT experience, I can tell you as someone that both worked as an electrician and a FiOs technician that I also assumed that honesty reflects well on people and would be careful not to discourage it. I started at Verizon at like age 20 with that attitude and had no record and seldom anything to hide.

I learned fast that the policy of managers in both companies was, "Encourage narratives that honesty will always result in a better outcome to all employees... And for those stupid enough to believe it, punish them severely because only when they're honest do we know with certainty they're guilty."

First time I was questioned by management at Verizon, I made sure I was ambiguous in a way that made them think I was guilty. They said I was fired immediately and I said, "I'm fired? For what? I wasn't even in the truck. I told you what happened and I told you I was up a pole. The bucket truck was 2 blocks away when I saw it all."

Their faces turned white as they realized that I can tell everyone it's a lie and they can't just dismiss me as disgruntled for getting fired.

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#394

Post by tauntz »

icepat wrote: post #80
tauntz wrote: post #37

Move to a different country. I'm in an EU country and it's really rare to see a company do any background checks at all. Be honest, if/when you're asked about it of course - but just from personal anecdotal experience, it's rare that somebody even bothers to ask. (this might vary of course from country to country)

You need a clean background to move to another country if you're not a European. I specifically had to submit a Canadian RCMP fingerprint based background check when I moved to Iceland. EU nationals have it much easier, since the relocation process in the EU does not require that level of scrutiny.

Aha, thanks, I didn't know that!

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#395

Post by trogdor »

jakderrida wrote: post #393
trogdor wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure that your experience should be generalized to a broad rule against volunteering “any information about yourself to anyone in the office beyond what is required to complete your job.” I used to work in finance. Volunteering personal information about myself led to a close friendship with the CFO of the bank I worked for. I did good work, but so did many other people. The CFO and I got along so well only b…

> I’m not sure that your experience should be generalized to a broad rule against volunteering “any information about yourself to anyone in the office beyond what is required to complete your job.” While I don't have IT experience, I can tell you as someone that both worked as an electrician and a FiOs technician that I also assumed that honesty reflects well on people and would be careful not to discourage it. I sta…

>First time I was questioned by management at Verizon, I made sure I was ambiguous in a way that made them think I was guilty.

Why did you do that?

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#396

Post by jdksmdbtbdnmsm »

akira2501 wrote: post #268
minkiebun wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many companies handle background checks in exactly this manner; it’s common for seven years to be a cutoff where they stop caring.

Which is excellent, and should make it easy to codify that into law.

Think again. Historically, codifying workers' rights into law requires either a material benefit to powerful employers or decades of brutal sacrifice from working people who risk their lives in mass strikes.

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#397

Post by icepat »

tauntz wrote: post #394
icepat wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a clean background to move to another country if you're not a European. I specifically had to submit a Canadian RCMP fingerprint based background check when I moved to Iceland. EU nationals have it much easier, since the relocation process in the EU does not require that level of scrutiny.

Aha, thanks, I didn't know that!

After I replied to you I asked a European national who I know if they had to submit anything. They did not, and only found out that it's part of the process by talking to American expats. So apparently this is not common knowledge in the EU!

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#399

Post by tomduncalf »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #274
tomduncalf wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof definitely needed. Honestly this doesn’t sound like something HN would have any interest in doing, they don’t serve ads or anything like that so why would they care?

They do definitely limit upvoting/downvoting from similar accounts, so this isn't out of the realm of possibility. They care to avoid false votes, voting rings, etc.

Oh yeah that’s a fair point! But I’d hope the data isn’t used outside of that use

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#400

Post by jakderrida »

trogdor wrote: post #395
jakderrida wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not sure that your experience should be generalized to a broad rule against volunteering “any information about yourself to anyone in the office beyond what is required to complete your job.” While I don't have IT experience, I can tell you as someone that both worked as an electrician and a FiOs technician that I also assumed that honesty reflects well on people and would be careful not to discourage it. I sta…

>First time I was questioned by management at Verizon, I made sure I was ambiguous in a way that made them think I was guilty. Why did you do that?

My objective was to figure out whether their "always be honest" mantra they preached to employees had even a shred of merits. All I did was explain it in a way that didn't mention that I was not in any way in the vehicle, but performed hand gestures that would imply I was. The whole meeting was being typed out for records sake and I knew the fact that I wasn't, once revealed, would render them helpless. Especially because the policy of documenting who had each vehicle meant to go after employees, could also be used to demonstrate that I wasn't guilty, even if they chose to lie.

Another thing to consider is that the outcome (which is the one I wanted) resulted in me having them by the balls. I could repeat it to them as retribution in front of other employees with records to back it up and even in front of higher management to demonstrate how grossly incompetent they are.

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