Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#391

Post by wonderwonder » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

jollybean wrote: post #330

wonderwonder wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If OP is considered valuable by the organization and everyone is satisfied by their output then they are providing the value they are being paid for. If they feel they are overpaying OP for for the output he is providing then they would PIP him or at the very least say something. OP though has received promotions so they must feel he is doing a good job.

Yes - it's perfectly fine if OP isn't stressed or not doing a lot - if their 2-hour genius contributions are worth $200K to the company that's perfectly fine. This however, is probably not the case. The common case is that due to lack of proper oversight and bloat, people just coast and do nothing. It's incredibly hard to have 'true oversight' in software, which frankly is 'just fine' if everyone does their jobs prop…

I for the most part agree with you. Its probably not 100% on the up and up but a very large group of us do it. If everyone started working the full 8 hours then deadlines would be hit in half time or less. What would prevent the company from then deciding that they have to many engineers and laying off 30% of the workforce? It would save them a ton and they are still getting their goals accomplished in the same time frame as before. I feel like everyone coasting allows 25% of software engineering roles to exist. Don't get me wrong I am not saying we are angels helping our fellow man, quite the opposite; just an interesting thought experiment.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#392

Post by dudeman13 » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #222

nostrebored wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60 hour workweeks are absolutely sustainable? Desirable maybe not, but I’ve known lots of people who have worked ten hours a day six days a week. Especially if they don’t have other commitments.

I think many doctors work much more than that (60-80 hours each week) for pretty much their entire careers.

Yes, and burning out and stress are huge issues for doctors their entire careers too

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#393

Post by jay_kyburz » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

mokarma wrote: post #15

The bar for Developer productivity is extremely low. There is a theory that this is due to Computer Science being more Art and less Science and artists need their space to let their creativity shine. This is why a 10x Developer is possible unlike other industries.

Or is it that a 10x developer just sits down and works a full 40h week instead of messing around all day pretending to work.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#394

Post by binaryblitz » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

Yes, your coworkers know. I for one am generally very vocal about it to my manager. People that aren't pulling their weight make my life harder.

You could be doing more and making your teammates live's better.

Be better.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#395

Post by PragmaticPulp » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

gkop wrote: post #365

throw54679 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why work more? I founded a company and we were successful, but we really tried to continue the momentum. We had a group of 7-10 engineers, built over time and strenuously recruited and managed. And we have plateaued over the past 5 years. Now looking back I realized that probably a lot of the engineers had an attitude similar to what you describe. So they really ended up damaging their co-workers, because less growt…

What changed? Did your employees simply reach the cliff of their stock options?

I was an employee at a company that slowly declined due to employee malaise.

In our case, it wasn't about options or compensation. It was a slow poisoning of the well as a few obvious slackers were allowed to persist without consequences. If your team lead is only showing up for 4 hours per day and nothing bad happens to them, you suddenly don't feel like putting in more than 4 hours per day yourself. In fact, you get paid less than the team lead, so maybe you only put in 2-3 hours. Then your junior teammate sees this happening and decides to push it even further to 1-2 hours per day.

Meanwhile, the backlog piles up more and more. If you take a task, you're just inviting more work on yourself because you'll be responsible for it. You'll also have to convince the lazy teammates to help you with all of the blockers that fall in their domain, which they don't want to do. Better to just sit tight and claim you're still working on something else.

From the management side, it's critical to address severely underperforming employees before the mindset is allowed to spread. Some times it's a simple matter of engaging with the employee and determining what's wrong. Other times, some people just like pushing the limits of how much they can get away with. They won't do any work unless prodded by a manager. They either need constant attention from their manager, or if that's unavailable they need to be removed from the company (sadly).

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#396

Post by vlunkr » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #310

vlunkr wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> putting in 60 hours a week I would just get a new job. Unless you're volunteering for it and getting paid overtime, that is unacceptable.

A lot of workers in technology are getting paid in equity. For many, it makes it more than acceptable. It's not really anyone's place to tell someone else that the way they're making money is unacceptable without knowing all of the details. I put in 60-70 hour weeks routinely. I work at companies I founded and own. I don't make overtime. Is my work schedule unacceptable? What is the percentage of equity between 0% an…

I think it should be obvious that that's not what I'm talking about. If I'm employed to work 40 hours a week, I'm not going to work more than that on a regular basis.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#397

Post by digianarchist » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

brodouevencode wrote: post #353

digianarchist wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a coworker at a government job that clocked in doing no work for 6 months. They were going to PIP him when I left but he's still there now.

It's also the government. There are generally more barriers to firing someone than to hiring them.

It had been done before. Most people were packaged out though.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#398

Post by kelnos » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

throw54679 wrote: post #318

ConfessionTime wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

>Why work more? I founded a company and we were successful, but we really tried to continue the momentum. We had a group of 7-10 engineers, built over time and strenuously recruited and managed. And we have plateaued over the past 5 years. Now looking back I realized that probably a lot of the engineers had an attitude similar to what you describe. So they really ended up damaging their co-workers, because less growt…

It's kinda weird to blame your employees for your poor hiring choices, and for failing to recognize at the time that your current slate of employees wasn't pulling their weight.

But also think about why they weren't pushing harder to help the company grow. Were you not compensating them enough? Did you allow morale to go down, and then do nothing about it? Did you push your people to work unreasonable hours because you should have hired more people, but didn't want the added expense?

Or maybe your product just wasn't compelling enough, or your addressable market not big enough.

There are plenty of places where I would expect the blame to go, and "my employees didn't work hard enough" is likely at the bottom of that list.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#399

Post by kelnos » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

workshy wrote: post #380

ConfessionTime wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

Throwaway for this one... It's possible that you've got cause and effect the wrong way round: consider maybe that your self worth is derived mostly from your extracurricular activities because you're failing at work. You put almost no effort in, achieve very little, are almost entirely disengaged, but, since you're a normal human, being a loser doesn't fit your self-image so you look to find meaning elsewhere in area…

> consider maybe that your self worth is derived mostly from your extracurricular activities because you're failing at work.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I would much rather my self worth be derived from the things that I choose to do, versus something I have to do in order to survive.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#400

Post by spicyusername » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

ConfessionTime wrote: post #242

ineptech wrote: post #168

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

Reminds me of a saying I hear woodworkers say a lot: "If it looks good, it is good"

If you feel happy, you are happy. No need to over think it. If you feel you have what you need and are meeting your professional, emotional, familial, and financial responsibilities, sounds like you're good to go to me.