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Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

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Re: Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

#391
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does anyone have any actual statistics or quantitative data on the quality of Google search results? Google has. They use this data expertly to improve search. Common sense and technological advancement tells us that, quantitatively, Google search has become better year over year, for all their relevant metrics/cost functions. And likely, exactly because it has become better for all its users in aggregate, it has t…

This presumes that the metrics they optimize for are intended to represent usefulness to actual users and not, say, ad revenue. Even if they do intend to optimize for usefulness, this doesn't mean that they have metrics that accurately represent that. I also think you're underestimating average users. Anecdotally I've heard my parents complain repeatedly about the incoherent, auto-generated, affiliate link spam that…

> This presumes that the metrics they optimize for are intended to represent usefulness to actual users and not, say, ad revenue. Even if they do intend to optimize for usefulness, this doesn't mean that they have metrics that accurately represent that.

They have multiple levers, of which user search quality is a big set. There is always trade-offs and a balance that must be found, which aligns with company vision and strategy. Having these levers allows business-decision makers to direct focus top-down (on a certain set of users, on producing great ad numbers, etc.).

It is clearly hard and important to design these levels and find the right balance, given a rapidly changing company and user-base. So a lot of expertise and power is invested to measure the right things, and to find the right balance (an incorrect/risky balance should also be adjustable with other levers).

So for me: either Google is trying really hard, but essentially failing. Or they have the best of the world, with all the right context, designing these levers. While hard and sometimes wrong, I do not expect to contribute anything which may improve their lever settings. If someone does know, Google would like to hire them.

So while true, that accurately measuring things with proxies, is really hard, and sometimes done wrong at companies. I do not think Google gets this wrong, or at least, gets this to be the best of breed. If their metrics still cause long-term search engine quality loss, would show them to not know what they are doing. I think they do know very well, better than me at least.

I would agree too that the balance of levers right now is in line with Google's strong market position. Search engine quality could take a small hit, if justified with extra adsense income. But when search engine quality noticeably start going down, then all other metrics will suffer. You should have teams with sole focus on improving quality. Other teams will have to realize that favoring their lever over the search-engine-quality lever must lead to worse outcomes for Google in general.

About product searches, I myself was not able to do this satisfactory 15 years back. It improved. But need to stop viewing things as a single lever, a single metric. To say search has become "worse" in general, is to exactly fall into the trap of not accurately measuring and losing too much nuance/details for competing objectives.

Re: Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

#392
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "people also searched for" box is not just useless, but also very much messing with usability for me. Every time I click on a link, go back, then trying to click on the next link, this box shows up and I accidentally click on that (because it shows up with a little delay and an animation). This filter takes care of that box completely: www.google.com##.exp-outline www.google.com##[style="display: block; opacity:…

I cannot stress enough how infuriating it is when a page loads content under my mouse cursor at such a delay that I can manage to point at a link and click on it _before_ the new content is loaded so that I click/tap an unexpected link. This happens _all_ the time on the Twitter app search bar.

>This happens _all_ the time on the Twitter app search bar.

Hit the nail on the head there my friend. Super annoying.

I wonder why their search is so slow though. Any ideas?

Re: Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

#395
post #9

The results keep getting "refined" so as to suit the popular 80% of queries, while getting much worse for any technical or obscure queries. Forced synonyms and "people also searched for" are typically useless and almost infuriating. Once you get off the first or second page, the results get even worse-- with pages entirely unrelated to the query (e.g. not even containing the searched phrases). They are probably testi…

It's not even just dumbing down. It's heavily weighting to selling one or another thing. It's been getting worse for years but it's really degenerated in the last several months.

You can sort of fight it by including a term showing your topic in your search, I think.

Re: Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

#396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot stress enough how infuriating it is when a page loads content under my mouse cursor at such a delay that I can manage to point at a link and click on it _before_ the new content is loaded so that I click/tap an unexpected link. This happens _all_ the time on the Twitter app search bar.

This is infuriating on all UIs, but I haven't seen one that would implement a very obvious solution: if the area around click has changed in 100ms before the event, disregard the click. Either a webpage or a browser could do that. I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of it, so there must be some reason why it isn't done - does anyone know why?

Great idea, although from an engineering POV I think this is really hard. Most websites are super JS-heavy and hence, from a browser's POV, change constantly. Quite a ton of difference between pixels on the screen changing and the underlying DOM changing.

Re: Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon also really seems to push what they _want_ to sell over what they have available. A while back I spent a lot of time looking around for a basic SATA bluray drive on Amazon before finally giving up. All I could find was burners for several hundred dollars when I really just needed a drive to quickly rip a single disc I'd bought. I spent probably an hour scrolling through results and trying all sorts of variatio…

I just gave up on Amazon Spain about 2 years ago already. It's just completely impossible to filter and rank stuff properly, just loads of crap you don't want. I heard it's worse in Amazon US. What I don't get about this companies (because this seems a problem shared between google, YT and Amazon) is when they optimize for clicks or whatever their KPI, what are they thinking is the outcome in the mid term? I mean, ID…

Amazon UK is mildly less crap than this.

I just tried using Amazon.com to order something to Hong Kong for Christmas - sweet Jesus I don't know why anyone would ever visit that site more than once. I ended up giving up and just ordering the things with the co.uk version and sending them myself.

They extra postage cost is nothing compared to the insanity of the .com site.

Re: Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

#398
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lmfao. so you're telling me "quantitatively" that google search results have gotten better, without citing any data at all, but with an appeal to common sense and "technological advancement"? Yes. If that sounds so unacceptable or strange to you, I suggest you try it. Works really well when reasoning about unavailable data, or researching a field with slow peer-review process. > what if i told you that search is an…

> Yes, that's plausible. Should be measurable quantitively too. Can you cite some data on this? :) It's a bit bloody rich for you to come out with that attitude when your entire point revolves around your opinion of 'common sense' > Do you really think it is possible that Google runs an implementation test of a new ranking model, and deploys it, while all measurements, human labeling, and user tests show it is doing…

No, I used common sense, but I actually have the quantitative data that poster was asking about. Right now, I am doing exact keyword matches and trying to find myself. Will get back to you when my analysis is done.

> You seem to be confusing the concepts of 'Google have made their tech more profitable' and 'Google have made their search capability better'.

No, you are confused. Try to Google the article I was talking about. It talks of perceived value to the user. What value would you lose without access to Google maps, search, youtube, gmail, etc.?

Google made their tech more valuable. That sounds like an improvement to me.

> Google have made their search capability better

If you want an explanation for this obvious statement (and not be demanded to ask in return how capitalism works), I suggest you first try to code a simple search engine. I think a 100-line Python script with some imports would do. Only this would make talking about capabilities possible.

Re: Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

#399
post #43

The topic here says "quantitatively". Does anyone have any actual statistics or quantitative data on the quality of Google search results? All of these threads devolve into anecdotes and reminisces about the "good old days" and complaining about Pinterest. None of which is in the least quantitative. I'd be interested to see some actual data or research on the subject, if it exists. Or maybe it's not Google that's got…

"Quantitative" doesn't mean "empirical". I read the question to mean has google search returned _fewer_ results. Not fewer good results, but fewer results full stop. Perhaps the asker made a typo and meant "qualitatively".

Re: Ask HN: Has Google search become quantitatively worse?

#400
post #310
post #9

The results keep getting "refined" so as to suit the popular 80% of queries, while getting much worse for any technical or obscure queries. Forced synonyms and "people also searched for" are typically useless and almost infuriating. Once you get off the first or second page, the results get even worse-- with pages entirely unrelated to the query (e.g. not even containing the searched phrases). They are probably testi…

> The results keep getting "refined" so as to suit the popular 80% of queries, while getting much worse for any technical or obscure queries. The fundamental, unavoidable problem is that the cost of providing high-quality results on the long-tail of possible searches tends to grow faster than the revenues that can be earned from those increasingly rare, obscure, long-tail searches. Any search service seeking to maxim…

The fundamental, unavoidable problem is that the cost of providing high-quality results on the long-tail of possible searches tends to grow faster than the revenues that can be earned from those increasingly rare, obscure, long-tail searches.

I think even two years ago, Google searches had far more depth and yet Google was quite profitable (then the searches were still biased but now stuff is simply gone). Sure, if someone looked at the marginal profitability of every single search result, it would look like what we're seeing. But there was a time when good indexing of stuff that didn't turn a profit by itself was done as a service to attract people to Google and/or to improve the Internet generally. That time has passed, clearly but it was a decision.

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