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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#381
post #283

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

I am with you on most of your points, but definitely not on the "normal and mostly acceptable". The truth of our domain is that you can get great work done in 3-4 hours a day (I am referring to deep work here, not meetings). In fact, most of us become much less productive beyond that. The remaining hours can/should be spent on useful meetings, reading, learning new things, chatting to people about things, etc. Coasti…

> I am with you on most of your points, but definitely not on the "normal and mostly acceptable".

The "normal" part is easy to disprove: If everyone was doing near zero work and lying their way through standup about it, nothing would ever get done. That may be normal in certain zombie organizations, but those organizations can't last forever without people doing actual work. Somebody is doing the work, even if the OP isn't.

> Coasting from a standup to the next with zero work in between is definitely not normal (_if done on a regular basis_) and the sign that something is not right in your current situation.

The part about doing nothing all day and then lying their way through standup stood out to me.

Like you said, we all know that programmers aren't hands-to-keyboard programming for 8 straight hours every day, nor do we expect that. However, we do expect that everyone is putting in similar amounts of effort to their peers.

I'm surprised how many comments here are justifying the zero-work behavior because the manager hasn't caught on yet. This doesn't mean the work disappears. It means the person's teammates have to pick up the slack and carry the project forward without the OP.

Working with a deadbeat teammate is an awful experience. If you need to get anything done, the only way forward is to plead with them to get some work done, or just do it yourself. More often than not, the team ends up doing it themselves.

We've all been stuck with deadbeat team mates, from group projects in school to the workplace. It's not okay to be the deadbeat teammate.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#382

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

I so much agree with the part of it being soul crushing, especially from remote.

If I liked videogames maybe I could fill that void in my working days.

In the end I choose to program other things, I still get to learn and be a better dev every day for my employer.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#383
post #103
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

> I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... In fact, this is so common that I can name the exact people at several jobs I've had. And I could mention them to my coworkers and they'd know exactly what these people's reputation are. Our feeling toward them is a mix of being impressed and being embarrassed. Impressed because there's something to be said for someone who works the system to their adv…

They may well get that feeling outside of work. Maybe they like making music but couldn't make a living as a musician. Maybe they're writing a novel. Whatever it is. Most of the things most people in the world enjoy doing are not the things they are made to do for their job.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#384

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

It is SHOCKING beyond words to me what accepted dogma it is that the human resources/devs only work on one thing at a time, they start at the beginning, plan, write, test, & code review the thing, and then move on. It's a huge waste of human potential. Background processing is vital. Getting hit by the various silly hurdles in the path to shipping- having to go from the elation of getting something done to having to…

>It's hard for me to tell exactly where this sprung up from, how it is so deeply deeply rooted.

Industrial mass production makes physical objects with incredible efficiency, once things are up and running. Because it's so effective with atoms, people think it can be just as effective with bits, and they're wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#386

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

I was once at a job where I didn't do much. One day I did nothing, the next day I fixed a bug in 15 minutes, etc.

I got excellent reviews. So I asked myself the question: If I get excellent reviews with this kind of work, what the fuck are those other guys doing???

> about 10%-20% of all employees

I highly doubt it. Do you have a 10x developer on your team? That's probably the only person doing any serious work. Does he get paid 10x? No? Well that's why the other guys are slacking off. Maybe the person you gave an excellent review is slacking off like crazy.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#387
If you were paid hourly and billed for more hours then you worked, then yes it is a problem

If you are paid to never create anything for yourself during a chunk of hours, using resources made available to you, in exchange for money, perks, community, access to licensed software, then its fine. Just deliver what you said you would deliver, on time. And move on.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#388

I think there's also something to be said for passive processing. Sometimes I'll know I need to write some code or some function and I'll just think about it in the back of my head while doing other things, sometimes for a whole day or two. Then I'll sit down and write it in like 20-30 minutes. Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the t…

Right! I find that I have to 'sleep on' most hard problems. WfH is great because I can take a nap and then get back to work. In the office I can't do that.

Less hard problems need less-passive processing but are better solved on a bicycle or doing something completely unrelated.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#389
post #301
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

What is IC? Google tells me Interstitial Cystitis, but my hunch tells me it's something else.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#390
post #366
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read about the FIRE theory time and again. For some reason, I don't buy it. I fail to believe in the plan that consists in building enough FU money to then "be free". Free to do what? What was the plan originally? I think the real meaning of life is to do what you care about today, _with the constraints you have today_.

Being free might mean that you take a traditional full-time job, if doing so is the best way to "do what you care about today". But the great thing is that you can take that job without all the normal financial stress that goes with it, and with the knowledge that you can just quit if you don't like it or end up with a bad manager. Aside from that, though, I really think you should step back and try to reexamine "lif…

Thank you for your reply. I found it very profound and insightful.
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