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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#381

Post by PopeDotNinja »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #373

I've built a team from trained-up junior devs, and it was great, I would recommend this route for anyone building a team. BUT... you have to have people who can train and teach as well as code. There are personality traits that don't align with this. The typical "aspy Dave" stereotype of a rockstar programmer is not good at this. So you have to align the entire team from day 1 as being a training environment as well…

> Oh, and we were too small to have an HR department. When we grew big enough, they definitely got in the way. I had to more or less fight them off over every position we hired for, because they didn't understand anything about coding,

When I ran my tech recruiting business, I made screening tech resumes a key part of the interview process. I could onky get it to work if I wrote the job ad myself (as a recruiter who talked directly to the hiring manager), told the interviewees specifically what I was looking for, and specifically coached them to find reasons to like people.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#382

Post by Merad »

Bombthecat wrote: post #366
ivansavz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Can't you make a binding / contract? My company did that with me. Basically forbidding me to quit for 12 months. Ways you can do it in germany: hire. After 2 or 3 months to see if he is a good fit. Give him a bonus to stay. The contract allows you for up to two years without issues, maybe three. If he quits earlier. He must pay back the bonus back (Valles Heilung des bonus in german, healing 9f bonus) after a few mon…

Roughly 2/3s of the states in the US have “right to work” laws, which basically means that either employer or employee can terminate the job at any time for basically any reason.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#383

Post by kodablah »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #373

I've built a team from trained-up junior devs, and it was great, I would recommend this route for anyone building a team. BUT... you have to have people who can train and teach as well as code. There are personality traits that don't align with this. The typical "aspy Dave" stereotype of a rockstar programmer is not good at this. So you have to align the entire team from day 1 as being a training environment as well…

> But then, we hired for people who were hungry to learn and create. Less graduate programmers thinking they knew it all, more college dropouts who loved coding but couldn't stand academia.

I think when people say they can't find good devs, it's not that they are only looking for seniors, it's that they can't find the eager ones you are talking about either. Amongst the realm of juniors, they are quite rare in my experience.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#384

Post by [deleted] »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#385

Post by b3b0p »

What I have found by working with junior developers are our company is that I end up learning, reflecting, and growing myself, my skills, and am able to better express myself and my ideas as well.

I also get good questions that I may or may not know the answer too. So, I feel not only am I teaching someone who has much less experience, but I end up learning things myself and new ideas or thoughts and ideas I never had before.

Seems like a win-win to me. Plus, it's super fun having co-workers who are hungry and curious and to work on for-fun side projects with once in a while.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#386

Post by ryanmarsh »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #373

I've built a team from trained-up junior devs, and it was great, I would recommend this route for anyone building a team. BUT... you have to have people who can train and teach as well as code. There are personality traits that don't align with this. The typical "aspy Dave" stereotype of a rockstar programmer is not good at this. So you have to align the entire team from day 1 as being a training environment as well…

I had to more or less fight them off over every position we hired for, because they didn't understand anything about coding, IT or creativity, and would just look for relevant experience in a similar field.

I’m a dev coach, which means I can run circles around my client’s developers (except usually one or two). However if I ever wanted to get hired as an actual employee at any of my clients I couldn’t. I’m a high school drop out with a weird work history. There’s no way I could get through HR.

The absurdity of this has not worn off.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#387

Post by [deleted] »

sergiosgc wrote: post #335
arvinsim wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not business savvy so I am curious why businesses choose to do this.

It's very simple, really. If you only raise salaries on personnel rotation, you do not have to raise salaries of those employees that do not jump ship. You save a bundle if you have a large workforce. This attitude introduces a skew where your workforce gets progressively filled with people who do not switch jobs. It's a dangerous outcome, to be managed with care. If you get stuck with those who do not switch jobs be…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#388

Post by ludwigvan »

oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

Maybe there should be transfer fees as in soccer?

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Transfer_(association_football)

Is that a thing in any other profession, paying for the training company/instituition?

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#389

Post by ManlyBread »

Bombthecat wrote: post #366
ivansavz wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Can't you make a binding / contract? My company did that with me. Basically forbidding me to quit for 12 months. Ways you can do it in germany: hire. After 2 or 3 months to see if he is a good fit. Give him a bonus to stay. The contract allows you for up to two years without issues, maybe three. If he quits earlier. He must pay back the bonus back (Valles Heilung des bonus in german, healing 9f bonus) after a few mon…

Why would anyone want to sign this kind of a contract when most companies don't play these games? Even as a junior I wouldn't see this as an opportunity, I would wonder what is wrong with the company.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#390

Post by verelo »

It's a great option, but it's a hell of a lot of work if you want to do it right. At the end of the day, you also need to continue to provide them all the benefits and perks of developers that came to you with more seniority. None of this is bad, unfair or in any way problematic, it's just a lot of work. In return you may get a bit of loyalty, but again that only goes so far.

I like to hire a mix. Have 1 senior person (initially that could be yourself, it'd always be me in the start) per 5-10 junior people. The juniors should also be a blend to some degree, you do not want some super senior developer coaching 10 new grads, but if you get the right mix...you can create a super productive team this way.

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