Not just VB, but also things like Borland Delphi. 25 years ago, you could visually compose a UI using standardized components, including advanced concepts like a layout manager. You could do data-binding visually by navigating a linked database. You can write logic/events just by double-clicking a button and the event is created. Here you'd write your code which would typically be pretty easy because all contextual o…
Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
371–380 of 535 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was trying to compare like for like on features. Slapping together a few fields and a button in react and posting the results to an unauthorized endpoint doesn't feel any more difficult to me than the same in VB. However, it's certainly an order of magnitude more complex to use react with all the features expected of modern development with design systems, auth/z, logging, monitoring, etc.
I'm deploying react to a CDN for a living, and I would have no idea how to instruct someone to "slap together a few fields and a button" and put it somewhere meaningful. As a kid, I remember making full blown D&D character sheets based on an easy Access backend. You could even print them out. I want to, but I just can't back any claim that things have gotten easier for pretty much anything. With a ton of extra power…
My point was not that modern deployment is easy. Nor that modern react with all the trimmings is easy. My point was that the nostalgic view of VB is reductive and skips all the things we now consider essentials. And for the effort involved, we get much more done now than ever before, albeit at a much greater complexity cost and steeper learning curve.
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#373I actually wrote a long article on this [1]—and had a chance to interview some of the team that built the original version of VB that was sold to Microsoft. (Alan Cooper and Michael Geary; Michael actually frequents HN pretty regularly!) My opinion is that it was a confluence of a few factors: - Microsoft was very worried about the threat of Java/Sun, and rotated hard into .NET and the common language runtime as a re…
> VB got a full rewrite into an object-oriented language and the IDE moved further away from the VB6 visual building paradigm. What do you mean by this? Visual Studio today has a designer / code editor that works in a very similar way to VB6 that I remember. What do you think is missing?
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
A lot of people who wrote VB weren’t serious/professional programmers and VB.NET was too complex for them. For the serious programmer group, the stink of “VB” tainted it right out of the gate (despite having complete feature parity for a long time VB.NET jobs always paid notably less than C# ones). So it was kind of a compromise that satisfied nobody.
That was me. I wrote what I affectionately call "crapware," which are small apps that solve a problem but are not intended for use at scale. There was a lot of this stuff, such as little database queries, or hacking together a few industrial sensors with a crude display. Businesses ran on crapware. Maybe they still do. A few thousand lines of code that I wrote for a manufacturing fixture ran bug-free for more than a…
VS6 was still the majority IDE well into the mid-00s, at least in an academic setting. I still remember getting handed an academic license DVD to use for my C++ courses in University around that time.
The disconnect between "classic" and ".NET" VS took a long time to break, I would say until about VS2008/2010.
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#375The productivity wasn't really that good. Rose tinted glasses. All the VB apps I've seen (and still get paid to maintain/rewrite to this day in the finance world) are an order of magnitude simpler than even a simple modern website. They often only have a few users, no devops automation, no deployment automation, terrible logging, terrible instrumentation, no tests, unacceptable access control, tons of failure edge ca…
Exactly! The little Visual Basic I saw was always and entangled, manually tested, spaghetti code mess. Devs were productive only at the start of the project and slowed down to a crawl as things got more complex.
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#376Visual Basic died for the same reason that Win 7 & Win 8.1 died. ..
The second part about "others listening" is more problematic. I'm talking about version numbers for node, docker, python, etc. So you're then forced to use something modern, so linux in a VM.
Typically I will approach development with a boycott on technologies that require new oses. So Python 3.10 it is. Also node/npm to me just sucks. I like older stuff, because it was better, like js/html/css. The document is the document, not running through lots of build tools to finally become the document. Or stuff that simply still works. To me it's easier to use a game engine -> HTML5 then node + react for web dev. Yes it's bad for accessibility. But it's not based on brittle building. When I'm targeting "old works" it has the advantage that the software AND dev environment still works later (assuming win 7). I wish less languages/frameworks/etc on would stop deprecating it.
It's still the best os to actually use. You get git bash so normal commands work. Win 7 feels like linux without randomly nuking your os for your terrible mistake of enabling automatic logon or something. How dare a user change a setting, I guess you're nuking your os now. In a VM linux is good because snapshots mostly alleviate the random breakage.
Typically you only have to re-install every several years. And honestly linux is like way better than windows obviously, EXCEPT the random breakage and badly coded interactions and environment fragmentation.
Win 7 just boringly works well. No injected ads. Low resource usage. Os doesn't hari-kiri randomly
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm deploying react to a CDN for a living, and I would have no idea how to instruct someone to "slap together a few fields and a button" and put it somewhere meaningful. As a kid, I remember making full blown D&D character sheets based on an easy Access backend. You could even print them out. I want to, but I just can't back any claim that things have gotten easier for pretty much anything. With a ton of extra power…
And where would you meaningfully deploy a VB form other than your personal computer? Likewise, you don't need to deploy react at all if you are running it locally, just npm start. You can even print to PDF from the browser. You can use LocalStorage for persistence. Feature for feature, it approaches a local VB and Access project for about the same effort. I've taught many beginner students with this technique. My poi…
Dreamweaver was surprisingly close for building a form or similar. We tossed a lot out the window when we decided to focus on the HTML side of that equation. I swear it is like a lot of the older assembly versus C that existed years ago. Only, we decided that we did, in fact, care about the assembly.
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#378Earlier quoted context omitted.
The web and the way MS handle the web killed it. Microsoft was pushing everyone towards these horrible activx components. Many moved to PHP or Adobe Flash. I was using MS Access back in the day to solve business problems - it was like a VB6 DSL focused fully on data-driven applications. It was extremely time efficient thanks to that focus - what took me days to build took a VB developer (or PHP developer) months. Tha…
In my experience, ActiveX was not what they pushed. They pushed Asp.Net Webforms which used VBScript for the template language. The ViewState monstrosity made it an awful experience. Specifically how it send way more data than needed to and from the server on each request. I shiver when I think of it.
Unfortunately, nobody anywhere ever trusted ActiveX because it (at least gave everybody the impression it) had holes the size of a bus, so you were stuck using a limited language with no library support to do all the glue and all the heavy lifting, it was a very unpleasant period of time if you found your way into a Microsoft shop.
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
VB6’s concept of OOP was different. Sure the same keywords are found: Module, Sub, etc but it was rewritten to run on IL/NET VM. Fundamentally changing it from a COM compatible language to a .Net framework compatible one.
VB6's concept of OOP was simple enough it could have been translated into .NET and .NET is broadly compatible with COM. I'm certain Microsoft could have made it work. They really needed to consider VB6 as a backwards compatibility target instead of building VB.NET as a modern replacement. VB.NET really has no reason to exist; it's not compatible enough with VB6 but then also includes a bunch of VB6's weirdness.
Re: Ask HN: Why did Visual Basic die?
#380I actually wrote a long article on this [1]—and had a chance to interview some of the team that built the original version of VB that was sold to Microsoft. (Alan Cooper and Michael Geary; Michael actually frequents HN pretty regularly!) My opinion is that it was a confluence of a few factors: - Microsoft was very worried about the threat of Java/Sun, and rotated hard into .NET and the common language runtime as a re…