Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#371

Post by xpe » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:24 PM UTC

idle_zealot wrote: post #311

zdragnar wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That comment blatantly implies that secularl and liberal ideas are incompatible with valuing tradition, morality and spirituality. It makes unquantified assumptions about how the person was raised and their life experiences. There's nothing charitable about it at all.

> blatantly implies that secularl and liberal ideas are incompatible with valuing tradition, morality and spirituality Yes, that is what I was implying. Now I will state it more explicitly: those values are each at odds with either secularism or liberalism. > unquantified assumptions about how the person was raised I'm not entirely sure what an unquantified assumption is, but I clearly qualified that I was making a g…

> Now I will state it more explicitly: those values are each at odds with either secularism or liberalism.

If philosophies claiming absolute truth are imposed on a pluralist society there will be conflict. In this sense, I agree they are incompatible in some cases.

However, they are not necessarily incompatible. There are religious leaders who recommend that followers live by a religious philosophy without imposing it via strict laws.

A philosopher named Robert Kane describes his views which distinguish between public morality and private morality. Pluralism as a public morality is compatible to a very large extent with most private moralities. You only get incompatibilities when the private morality tramples on the rights of other private moralities. This is a useful distinction.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#372

Post by xpe » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:31 PM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #337

xpe wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(facepalm) The world is so interesting and nuanced! It would be tragic to expect one word answers to deep questions.

The world is too interesting and too nuanced to waste time trying to decipher a worldview obscured with wordplay.

That does not mean it is obscured intentionally. quite the contrary -- if you read my comments I've explained my views in many different ways. I've put the effort in.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#373

Post by xpe » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:38 PM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #337

xpe wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(facepalm) The world is so interesting and nuanced! It would be tragic to expect one word answers to deep questions.

The world is too interesting and too nuanced to waste time trying to decipher a worldview obscured with wordplay.

> The world is too interesting and too nuanced to waste time trying to decipher a worldview obscured with wordplay.

Ah, yes, classic self defense when one feels threatened. Interesting that you use wordplay to criticize wordplay. I've done it too. Everyone has. But it isn't really getting us anywhere. It is a good way to protect one's ego though.

I'm sorry you don't understand it. I'm sorry if you perceived my quip as an insult. I was trying to make the point that if you ask overly simplistic questions and demand overly simplistic answers you aren't going to learn very much. If you take that personally then I'm sorry. My intent is for more people here to broaden their perspective. I see very strong signals have people been anchored in computer science but not philosophy or ethics or history. I see common tendencies for people to dig in. It is easier to defend oneself than to learn.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#374

Post by xpe » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:43 PM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #328

xpe wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Liberalism and pluralism do not attempt to deny other ways of life or philosophies. > Isn’t that what you just did? The key is understanding what I mean by "deny". First, I'll define liberalism and pluralism as I'm using them (from Wikipedia): > Pluralism as a political philosophy is the recognition and affirmation of diversity within a political body, which is seen to permit the peaceful coexistence of different…

Quoted post unavailable.

Some people would say thank you for taking the time to explain. Others seem to belittle long answers. Which message do you want to convey? Something else? Do you want me to try again to distill it in a way that you can understand? If so, what effort have you put in to meet me halfway?

Look I'm being direct with you, but I'm not upset or attacking you. I'm just seeing the standard patterns of online discussion, and I'm pushing back. We can do better.

There's too much passive aggression wrapped in seemingly logical arguments. But one level deeper it is really clear what is bothering people. I think people don't feel heard. They want to convince people but somehow fall back into sharp criticism which just repels people.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#375

Post by wyager » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:54 PM UTC

xpe wrote: post #324

wyager wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you talking about > classical liberalism, the scientific method, liberal arts, music, pedagogy, statistics when our conversation was about > Liberalism and pluralism (your words)? > State-based education is funded largely because it is in the interest of the state to educate citizens to participate in government and exist in a pluralistic society This is not an even approximately correct model for why the sta…

>> State-based education is funded largely because it is in the interest of the state to educate citizens to participate in government and exist in a pluralistic society > This is not an even approximately correct model for why the state bankrolls public education in the US. I'd be interested to hear about your model. Please tell me what kind of model you mean. Are you familiar with the phrase: "All models are wrong,…

The first-order reason the current regime funds education is that it is a pork-barrel jobs program (especially for college-educated women). The second-order reason is that the regime is mostly staffed by religious adherents to state-secularism, and the public education system is their pulpit.

And no, I'm not irritated - I don't think there's an efficient way to have a worthwhile discussion about someone's religious beliefs over the internet without coming across as slightly hostile. Apologies.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#376

Post by wyager » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 1:59 PM UTC

xpe wrote: post #338

wyager wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you talking about > classical liberalism, the scientific method, liberal arts, music, pedagogy, statistics when our conversation was about > Liberalism and pluralism (your words)? > State-based education is funded largely because it is in the interest of the state to educate citizens to participate in government and exist in a pluralistic society This is not an even approximately correct model for why the sta…

> This is deeply ironic, although I don't expect you to be able to notice why. Are you trying to insult me? If not, I'd suggest leaving out "although I don't expect you to be able to notice why."

No. That comment isn't really addressed at you; it's addressed at our readers. It's just that people with your parochial (in the literal sense) educational background (which I can infer clearly from your comments) habitually accuse others of ignorance, from a position of relative ignorance. I don't think this is a moral failing on your part or anything; it's just something we see all the time, and eventually you kind of just have to find it funny. Once you identify this response as a component of the state-secular-education-instilled memetic defense mechanism, it's funny to see its (frequently ironic) activation.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#377

Post by wyager » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 2:02 PM UTC

xpe wrote: post #329

wyager wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you talking about > classical liberalism, the scientific method, liberal arts, music, pedagogy, statistics when our conversation was about > Liberalism and pluralism (your words)? > State-based education is funded largely because it is in the interest of the state to educate citizens to participate in government and exist in a pluralistic society This is not an even approximately correct model for why the sta…

> western state-secular religion We have not using the word religion in the same way. But I know what you mean.

I think we actually are. The main difference between the current state-secular religion and, say, progressive quakerism, is that state-secularism doesn't have an identifiable God. But this is, it turns out, a pretty minor difference in practice (and it's state-secularism's primary competitive advantage in the modern legal environment).

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#378

Post by wyager » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 2:05 PM UTC

xpe wrote: post #322

wyager wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you talking about > classical liberalism, the scientific method, liberal arts, music, pedagogy, statistics when our conversation was about > Liberalism and pluralism (your words)? > State-based education is funded largely because it is in the interest of the state to educate citizens to participate in government and exist in a pluralistic society This is not an even approximately correct model for why the sta…

> Why are you talking about >> classical liberalism, the scientific method, liberal arts, music, pedagogy, statistics > when our conversation was about >> Liberalism and pluralism > (your words)? I'm going to make a few points in different threads to ease replies. First, let's step back. We are different people having a conversation. I often see people claiming the other person is off topic. Such a claim assumes that…

I have a habit of ignoring "tone" in discussions on relatively intelligent message boards because I think most of the people I'm talking to can handle it, and it makes the discussion vastly more likely to transmit valuable information.

I'm not trying to police the topic of your commentary; I'm just not letting you swap out "liberalism and pluralism" with "classical liberalism, the scientific method, liberal arts, music, pedagogy, statistics". I don't know if you did this intentionally or subconsciously, but this is an extremely common (and dishonest) rhetorical strategy used by your religion. Don't expect me to let it slide.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#379

Post by wyager » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 2:07 PM UTC

jackson1442 wrote: post #290

wyager wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps something about the organizational setup of religious-based and funded programs American public schools are a religious-based and funded program; you just don't notice it because you don't even know what your own religion is.

Would you like to provide any evidence or supplementary information to support your claim?

No.

Re: Ask HN: If you’ve considered homeschooling, what’s stopping you?

#380

Post by wyager » Sat, Jul 02, 2022, 2:07 PM UTC

xpe wrote: post #315

wyager wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps something about the organizational setup of religious-based and funded programs American public schools are a religious-based and funded program; you just don't notice it because you don't even know what your own religion is.

> because you don't even know what your own religion is. Please explain. To whom are you referring with "your"? Me, whom you don't know? Someone in general?

I'm referring to you personally, but also a number of our mutual readers.

I don't need to know you at a personal level to know what your religion is; it's clear from your comments.