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Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

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Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#371

Post by vfinn »

ativzzz wrote: post #191
vfinn wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if IPFS (~web 3.0) succeeds in the future, you could solve the advertising problem by inventing a meta network, where all the sites involved would agree to follow certain standardized criteria of site purity. You'd tag the nodes (or sites), and then have an option to search only sites from the pure network. Just a thought. edit: Maybe this would lead to a growing interest in the site purity, and as the network'…

Be careful what you wish for, as you might get AMP or some propriety Facebook format as a standard instead.

Well, I was thinking we could have endless number of (meta) networks / network configurations / standards. I mean each node could have as many tags as needed, e.g. #safe_for_children_v1.1 #pure_web_v2.0. Then you could configure your search engine / browser according to these tags. You could also stack tags to simplify things, e.g. pure_stack would include both #safe_for_children and #pure_web, etc. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems doable.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#372

Post by cy6erlion »

I think there is only two options.

1) Have an index created by a centralized entity like google 2) Have the nodes in the network create the index

The first option is the easiest but can be biased on who gets to be on the index and their position on the index.

Option two is hard because we need a sort of mechanism to generate the index from the subjective view of the nodes in the network and sync this to everyone in the network.

The core problem here is not really the indexing but the structure of the internet, domains/websites are relatively dumb they can not see the network topology, indexing is basically trying to create this topology.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#373

Post by TeMPOraL »

notahacker wrote: post #305
TeMPOraL wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How would you achieve that? By outrightly outlawing advertising? Yes. > There absolutely are paid options on the web. It's just that they don't seem to appeal to a sufficient number of buyers so advertising could become irrelevant. They aren't appealing in the presence of ad-subsidized free alternatives . Remove the latter, and they just might become appealing again.

Few things sound less likely to improve the internet than some entity having the power to content-police the web and remove anything it accuses of the thoughtcrime of advertising...

Advertising isn't a thoughtcrime, it's a cognitive/psychological assault.

I think a combination of consumer protection laws, truth in advertising laws and data protection laws, all turned up to 11 (even GDPR), could achieve most of the desired outcome on the Internet without much problematic "content-policing". But I'm not sure. You won't eliminate advertising from the Internet entirely, but making it illegal would make undesirable advertising more expensive, by creating vast amount of risk for advertisers and simultaneously destroying the adtech industry, thus rendering most of the abusive practices that much less efficient.

(Also, to be clear, I want all advertising gone. Not just on-line, the meatspace one too.)

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#374

Post by TeMPOraL »

Nasrudith wrote: post #308
TeMPOraL wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because one totally destroys the other. Slave labour, selling poison or dumping waste into rivers are all superior business models too, but that doesn't mean they should exist in a civilized society.

The train also destoyed the horse drawn wagon train for bulk land transport. Just because it totally destroys another business model doesn't mean it is wrong. Felony interference with a business model protectionism isn't good for societies. Historically this stagnant "stability" gets them lapped and forced into the modern world if lucky or conquered if not no matter how vigorously they insist that it is the only and…

Of course. I'm not saying displacing business models is bad per se. I'm saying that just because one business model can displace a different one, doesn't immediately mean it's good. Plenty of business models are morally bankrupt, and I believe "free but subsidized by advertising" is such, by virtue of advertising itself[0] being morally bankrupt.

--

[0] - as seen today; not the imaginary "informing customers about what's on the market" form, but the real "everyone stuck in a shouting contest of trying to better manipulate customers" form.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#375

Post by aleppe7766 »

samirm wrote: post #344
aleppe7766 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would bring to an even bigger filter bubble issue, more precisely to a techno élite which is capable, willing and knowledgeable enough to feel the need go through the hassle, and all the rest navigating in such an indexed mess that would pave the way to all sort of new gatekeepers, belonging to the aforementioned tech élite. It’s not a simple issue to tackle, perhaps a public scrutiny on the ranking algorithms w…

I disagree. The people who don't know anything and are unwilling to learn wouldn't be any worse off than they are today and everyone else would benefit from an open source "marketplace" of possible ranking algorithms that the so called "techno elite" have developed.

I think the proposed improvement to the web in its intentions should mostly benefit the "ignorants", not those that can already navigate through the biases of today's technological gatekeepers. Please note, ignorants are not at fault for being so. Especially when governments cut funds for public education, and media leverages (and multiplies) ignorance to produce needs and sales, fears and votes. Any solution must work first to make the weak stronger, more conscious. A better and less biased web can help people grow their unbiased knowledge, and therefore exercise their right of vote with a deeper understanding of the complexity. Voting ignorants are an opportunity for the ill intentioned politicians, as much as are a problem for me, you and the whole country.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#376

Post by Kaiyou »

candu wrote: post #171
Kaiyou wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to. It's not a problem to ask and answer the same question repeatedly. School never had a problem with that.

School also never had navigability of past questions / answers as its explicit objective.

Neither would the replacement for search engines.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#377

Post by Kaiyou »

timlatim wrote: post #348
Kaiyou wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teachers teaching the same class every year can't use this as an excuse either.

The most informative answers I've encountered on StackOverflow are either a product of research (benchmarking, analyzing multiple sources) or very specific knowledge, sometimes written by the author of the framework/library in question. I'm not sure your analogy applies since these answers demand substantially more effort than the (usually) predictable and repetitive questions teachers face in class.

At some point someone has to write it, like school textbooks. After that your just looking at distributing that knowledge. The replacement for search engines solves the latter problem.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#379

Post by epynonymous »

my ideal internet would be more like a set of concentric rings per user, a ring would represent different preferences, filters, and data, i could choose to include certain users access to parts of my rings, and i could access other parts of other user's rings. obviously there should be an open ring that every user can access which would need a search engine run by a company or set of companies, this would be like today's internet, but that would not be the same ring, i could switch between rings with ease. i think this maybe somewhat what tim berners lee is doing with the decentralized web, or perhaps bits of dark net interwoven with the internet.

an example use case would be like a set of apps that my family could use for photo sharing, messaging, sending data, links to websites, etc. perhaps another set of apps for my friends, another for my company, or school. the protocols would not require public infrastructure, dns, etc. perhaps tethering of devices would be enough. there would be a need for indexing and search, email, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Can we create a new internet where search engines are irrelevant?

#380

Post by nairobi222 »

That would bring to an even bigger filter bubble issue, more precisely to a techno élite which is capable, willing and knowledgeable enough to feel the need go through the hassle, and all the rest navigating in such an indexed mess that would pave the way to all sort of new gatekeepers, belonging to the aforementioned tech élite. It’s not a simple issue to tackle, perhaps a public scrutiny on the ranking algorithms would be a good first step.
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