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Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

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Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#361
post #307
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

">As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau." There are two problems with hitting a plateau @ 300K: Housing costs and College Tuition. At the traditional 3x debt to gross income metric, your home mortgage would be capped around ~$900k, vs the $1.3-1.5MM range of current trading prices. Which is not terrible if you lock something in. However, once you are at 4x paying for schools becomes a far greater challenge. Yo…

> At the traditional 3x debt to gross income metric Can someone give more information/source on this?

Did some research. To answer my own question: DTI is a debt-to-income ratio that is considered during mortgage negotiations. It's desirable to have less than a 36% DTI such that your monthly debts (CC payments, mortgage, car payment, etc.) do not exceed your monthly income.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats on the pay grade! but you need to look at averages not anomalies like yourself 300k is definitely not the tract most programmers are on

Agreed - Around here @100K is higher than most. It all depends on your geography. I would live like a king with 300K!

Ok, let me change 'would' to 'could'. I'm way too frugal (my kids call it cheap) to waste.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#363
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

">As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau." There are two problems with hitting a plateau @ 300K: Housing costs and College Tuition. At the traditional 3x debt to gross income metric, your home mortgage would be capped around ~$900k, vs the $1.3-1.5MM range of current trading prices. Which is not terrible if you lock something in. However, once you are at 4x paying for schools becomes a far greater challenge. Yo…

According to globalrichlist.com, if you earn $300,000/yr, you earn more than 99.97% of people in the world. If you were to walk past a random sampling of 10,000 people on the street - only three of them would earn more than you. It also happens that the same basic financial strategy one might employ whilst making $30,000/yr applies whilst making $300,000/yr. That is, spend less than you earn. Or to put it a little mo…

Most of the $300K/yr jobs are in locations where housing is expensive. SF, NYC, etc. It's not like there are tons of $300K/yr work-from-home-in-Indiana jobs out there.

If your $300K/yr job is in the Bay area, and you like the job and area, it seems eminently reasonable to borrow money to buy a house there.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That a serious question or are you making a point? It's often hard to tell on the Internet... Edit: Oh, I see - you've confused me with the person way up-thread with the $300K income, I'm not the same poster as he. I don't like to reveal my income on the Internet, but I'd describe it as "enough", so, to answer your question: 1.) Be alert to pure, dumb luck when it happens, and willing to take advantage of it - includ…

I'm the poster from up-thread, and I agree with this message. :) With one caveat: >Always hone your skills so that when an opportunity arises, you can pounce. My strategy has been to follow my passions, which include digging into various technologies that interest me. I don't do it "so that" I can be relevant. I do it because it's fun. It just happens that, when you get good enough at enough things, you'll find that…

This is one of my fave posts ever on HN. Nicely done, Tim

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#365
I feel very identified with this. Also I am a 55 yo developer. And my main issue is to place the focus in one of the disciplines I dominate and be a great specialist on it. The biggest obstacle is that I love a lot my job and I'm always going from backend to frontend and back. But that's now a mistake and I must to fix it urgently.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#366
Offering up my experiences and viewpoint as an older developer.

At 45, I've been professionally coding for just over 20 years, so I've been able to work with the majority of technologies that have been available during that time span. Just for a frame of reference, I've worked in consulting, manufacturing, owned my own business, for health care companies, and most recently, a NLP "Big Data" (quotes intended for lack of a better term) company that is all OSS and cloud infrastructure.

First off, I don't feel like an older developer, as I still have the same passion for building software that I did when I was 24, but how I approach it is different. I have no real interest into going into a management position as it would rob me of my main passion in life. However, by being heavily involved in the local developer community, I've been able to help many people who are new to the field, and companies who need technical help at an architectural level, while not distancing myself from actual development as my primary job.

To address your questions specifically...

If pay and influence are your primary concern then traditional management is obviously one route, but I offer up the alternative, only because it has been my experience. That alternative is being involved in helping people in the community. Speaking at conferences to share your skills and experiences, attending hackathons to help people build interesting projects and meet even more interesting people, working with teachers/students at local schools, or any other types of event where you share the expertise you've gained over the years can help serve the same goals. You gain exposure, so more people will want to work with you which may easily lead to increased pay and influence.

As for there being a plateau in pay, I can't answer that, but I can definitely attest to there not being a drop in pay as long as you don't let your skills atrophy. There is a huge need in the technology world for experienced developers who can guide product development either individually or as part of leading a team.

"Are older devs not looking for jobs..." I think this is a faulty assumption. There are plenty of older developers looking for new opportunities, but I cannot deny that there is a significant segment of the workforce that does favor stability. Again, in my experience most companies that I talk to are looking for a mix of the 5+ and 20+ crowd. Only the most naive would hire a team of developers in their 20's and expect a robust, maintainable, sustainable solution... unless, of course, that's not the goal.

As for the specialist vs. generalist question, I think the distinction is irrelevant and either route would be fruitful. I might give a slight advantage to generalist because then your personal opportunities increase, but there's room in the industry for both, as they are both valuable.

So currently I'm coding and mentoring at my job. I know many other developers in my area that are approximately the same age doing either pure development, a mixture of development and being a team lead, or they've moved on to management.

I think the point is that the path of a passionate developer is not set in stone. You don't have to do any one particular thing in order to advance a career. The important thing is to figure out what's really important for you.

Do you care about remaining a developer?

Do you care about gaining influence and/or getting a high salary?

Do you care about helping your community?

Do you care about educating or mentoring others?

There's no one path.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to globalrichlist.com, if you earn $300,000/yr, you earn more than 99.97% of people in the world. If you were to walk past a random sampling of 10,000 people on the street - only three of them would earn more than you. It also happens that the same basic financial strategy one might employ whilst making $30,000/yr applies whilst making $300,000/yr. That is, spend less than you earn. Or to put it a little mo…

Most of the $300K/yr jobs are in locations where housing is expensive. SF, NYC, etc. It's not like there are tons of $300K/yr work-from-home-in-Indiana jobs out there. If your $300K/yr job is in the Bay area, and you like the job and area, it seems eminently reasonable to borrow money to buy a house there.

Unless you want to be increasing your net worth. It's certainly a matter of opinion, but I think if money is your priority, you're much better off in the wop wops making $120k/yr with little to no debt.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#369
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau. Mine seems to keep climbing. I'm hearing reports of >$300k, and have received an offer in that range myself (counting signing bonuses and stock grants). Granted my pay might plateau there , but honestly that's enough money to keep me happy without having to see it go up every year. I'm a total generalist, but I also have a few areas where I would qualify as a specialist;…

">As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau." There are two problems with hitting a plateau @ 300K: Housing costs and College Tuition. At the traditional 3x debt to gross income metric, your home mortgage would be capped around ~$900k, vs the $1.3-1.5MM range of current trading prices. Which is not terrible if you lock something in. However, once you are at 4x paying for schools becomes a far greater challenge. Yo…

Given that each educational cashflow is 0-22 years in the future, carrying at a discounted NPV would be more appropriate. Whatever the assumption, carrying at the multi-decade-forward FV is a bit punitive.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I hear LOTS of reports of people with $100-$140k salaries who receive signing bonuses close to their salaries. To the point where it seems like the "new standard." No, you don't see this in start-ups. I think HN may skew toward people who usually work in start-ups, so the perceived average will be lower as a result. Until this recent offer, it was my perception as well. And no, that's not quite my pay grade…

I kick ass. Where do I sign?

On the dotted line, of course.
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